Adrienne Neufeld [00:00:00]:
All right, welcome back to Change the Odds Podcast. I'm here with my husband Blaine, and we have a very special guest today. Barb Wilson is back again.
Blaine Neufeld [00:00:13]:
We're thankful for it.
Adrienne Neufeld [00:00:14]:
Thanks for having me back in town. She is, uh, now I forget, she's a clinical psychologist. Thank you. Clinical psychologist and relationships expert. Expert. I knew that part. Thank you for helping me though.
Blaine Neufeld [00:00:25]:
I'm here.
Adrienne Neufeld [00:00:26]:
Um, and we're here just to talk about sex.
Blaine Neufeld [00:00:29]:
Yeah, sex, baby. Yeah, yeah, yeah.
Barbara Wilson [00:00:32]:
One of my specialties.
Blaine Neufeld [00:00:33]:
I bet, I bet that's why you're here, and we're excited for it. So it's like, for Adrienne and I, it's very comfortable to talk about this, but what—
Adrienne Neufeld [00:00:41]:
but we didn't start there.
Blaine Neufeld [00:00:42]:
No, we didn't. No, we definitely didn't, especially with your upbringing. In terms of the—
Adrienne Neufeld [00:00:46]:
we were very much brought up the same.
Blaine Neufeld [00:00:48]:
I know I make it sound like I was—
Adrienne Neufeld [00:00:49]:
you sound like I'm so— I was like trying to deflect.
Blaine Neufeld [00:00:53]:
And I learned a lot of things through probably my brothers. Yes. Yeah, maybe prematurely.
Adrienne Neufeld [00:00:59]:
You're the youngest of 4, and I was very sheltered.
Barbara Wilson [00:01:01]:
So me too.
Adrienne Neufeld [00:01:03]:
Um, going into marriage and then like not talking about it and not being allowed to do it, and then— or choosing not to do it, I guess I should say— and then, okay, go, go do it. It was like so hard mentally for me to switch that, and it took a lot of—
Blaine Neufeld [00:01:20]:
is that common for a lot of people, especially kind of in that Christian world where it becomes taboo to suddenly it should be, you know, like the movies?
Barbara Wilson [00:01:29]:
Yeah, I think it— I was the same, you know. That's very, you know, in especially in churches. I mean, I grew up, nobody was talking about it, right? And so it was, it was this thing that we were all thinking about, but yep, nobody's talking, so we're not getting any kind of education or help or support. So Yeah, I, I'm interested though, like, what, what started making it feel comfortable for you to be able to talk, talk about it with others?
Adrienne Neufeld [00:01:57]:
We had some friends who had a very healthy sex life, and they were just very open and honest about theirs. And then we were like, oh, I guess like it's not weird to talk about.
Blaine Neufeld [00:02:08]:
Yeah, like, I would say that relationship in particular, he and I would have seen it the same as many guys do— very eager, very excited. This should be fun and joyful and all the things. Whereas maybe it was me that would have said something of like, oh, we don't do that, you know, on the golf course. Or I was, I was somewhat vulnerable and honest as well, which was okay because I felt safe with him. But then as the couples brought in the ladies' perspective, really validated your feelings towards it, probably. Yeah, that'd be fair.
Adrienne Neufeld [00:02:39]:
Yeah. And then I think they just encouraged us to like, um, communicate And in other areas too, I just felt like, oh, if I don't like something, I should just start telling him, you know? And that really helped us figure it out. So communication was key, but being vulnerable is very hard for me. So that took a lot of like, it felt weird at first, just like talking about it.
Barbara Wilson [00:03:07]:
And well, I mean, for me it was, You know, we struggle with sexual intimacy in our marriage, um, probably till year 20, and that's when, you know, I started figuring out more what was going on and what was my challenge. You know, I don't know, you probably don't know this, but I was the one that first started talking about sex here at Bayside.
Blaine Neufeld [00:03:30]:
No, I didn't.
Barbara Wilson [00:03:31]:
Yeah, wow, the OG. Yeah, so it was in 2004 I started a Bible study to help women heal from their sexual past.
Blaine Neufeld [00:03:40]:
Yes, yes.
Barbara Wilson [00:03:40]:
But, uh, nobody, nobody was talking about that here.
Adrienne Neufeld [00:03:44]:
Was that hard? Like, did you feel like people looked at you differently?
Barbara Wilson [00:03:48]:
It was terrifying because we were doing like, you know how you have Big Wednesdays?
Adrienne Neufeld [00:03:51]:
Yeah.
Barbara Wilson [00:03:51]:
So it was like one of those, and I'm up at the front, um, and there's all these pastors and they're talking about their Bible studies, right? And like, I'm gonna do one on prayer, and I'm gonna do one on, you know, the Book of James. And I come up and I'm gonna do one on, you know, healing from your sexual past. And it was, it was, it was like, I felt like a, like, you know, the chosen, the fish going the wrong way. I thought, what am I doing?
Blaine Neufeld [00:04:16]:
Yeah. But then we know people that attended those classes and your books and your studies and have been freed from it. And that has, and we see it firsthand, really enabled a beautiful sex life for them as a couple in a marriage. So way to go.
Barbara Wilson [00:04:31]:
Yeah, I know. I, when I think about it, it's just really amazing. But You know, being able— that's really, I think, what started being able to talk about, uh, why, you know, what might be impacting sexual intimacy. And there's so many things that can come in, whether or not that's abuse or trauma or just our past relationships, or even just if you had sex before you got married and how that can sure inhibit the emotional growth, right, in your relationship. But then even just culturally, right, you know, with pornography and shows, and that just this idea of what sex is supposed to look like.
Blaine Neufeld [00:05:05]:
Yeah.
Adrienne Neufeld [00:05:06]:
Can I ask a question? What made you want to start talking about it? Like, did you feel like God put it on your heart, or was it like, I see a problem here?
Barbara Wilson [00:05:13]:
And I— well, it came out of my own story. Now, I did a whole episode with Kevin on that. I don't know if you were on that, but, you know, out of my own past, you know, my first sexual experience was like a date rape, and then I ended up, um, you know, getting married when I was 18, and That didn't last. I got divorced. I'm 21. Then I became more promiscuous during that time. I was a Christian but not really walking with the Lord. I was really broken, let's just say.
Blaine Neufeld [00:05:39]:
Sure.
Barbara Wilson [00:05:39]:
And going down a path I couldn't get off. And then I got pregnant, and at that point, you know, just pretty feeling pretty devastated, so I had an abortion. So here I am, you know, I've been married, I'm getting a divorce, living in Canada, I'm playing the piano at church, my dad's a pastor.
Adrienne Neufeld [00:05:55]:
Oh, your dad was a pastor too?
Barbara Wilson [00:05:56]:
Yes. So, oh, and then I've had abortion. And, um, and so it was this like crisis moment for me. And but then, you know, got married to my current husband. And, um, but then for the next— for the first 20 years of our relationship where I really struggled with sexual intimacy, um, not only desire but even just feeling like it was something good or pleasant, right? And I didn't know why. At the same time, I'm teaching abstinence, going into schools I'm learning about the brain and bonding and, um, emo— you know, intimacy, and how, how, you know, sexual wounding or things in our past can impact our ability to bond in a relationship and see sex as something beautiful. So when it, when it feels, you know, it can feel negative and shameful, which is what sometimes keeps us quiet. But it was, you know, God leading me through some healing, not only for my abortion but then looking at my sexual past.
Barbara Wilson [00:06:54]:
I hadn't realized that my first experience was a date rape because I was in a relationship with this person. And so realizing that all the way back to that at like 17 years old, um, where that was where I formed my view of what sex was and what love was, and I had brought that into my relationship. And so God started taking me through my own healing, and it was so transformative in terms of how I saw my husband and being able to bond with him emotionally and then see sex as completely different something that was also for me, not just for him, something that was really bonding and fun and passionate. I mean, and, you know, like babies crawling, we had to like learn some things. But it was out of that that then God led me to start sharing my story, and I realized, oh, there's so many people. This is not just hurting.
Adrienne Neufeld [00:07:46]:
Yeah, you're not unique.
Barbara Wilson [00:07:48]:
And nobody's talking— like, nobody was talking about their sex life, so I didn't know what my problem was. I kept thinking, what is wrong with me? Well, my husband kept saying there's something wrong.
Adrienne Neufeld [00:07:58]:
He knew.
Barbara Wilson [00:07:59]:
Um, but so, you know, God just— just being able to heal all of that, like, you know, understanding the difference too between forgiveness and healing, you know, asking for forgiveness but then not realizing that healing is a different journey. Yeah. You know, actually looking at those past experiences that have hurt us and how it was impacting my relationship. And so the healing was so, so amazing so that, you know, I started writing books. I got a, you know, books published on it. And then Rachel Johnson, who was the pastor, women's pastor at the time, said, do you want to start a Bible study for healing from— whoa, that would be crazy, you know. Wow. And that's really cool.
Barbara Wilson [00:08:40]:
2004. And I, I'm still doing it today.
Blaine Neufeld [00:08:43]:
There we go.
Barbara Wilson [00:08:43]:
Let it last. Let a group last night.
Adrienne Neufeld [00:08:45]:
What I love about your story, I heard this um, on a podcast, but it's like God isn't always in the business of preventing, but he's always in the business of redemption. So he let you walk— because we have free will— he let you walk through all that stuff knowing that he could redeem it and use it for so much good and healing in other people. I think that's just— that is such a cool story. I actually didn't know like any of that.
Barbara Wilson [00:09:08]:
Is that right? Yeah.
Adrienne Neufeld [00:09:09]:
I'm like, you just kept saying things and I was like, and you're a pastor's kid.
Barbara Wilson [00:09:13]:
It's all in the first book.
Adrienne Neufeld [00:09:14]:
Okay. Yeah, the invisible bond.
Barbara Wilson [00:09:16]:
And then my second book, "Kiss Me Again," I talk more about how it impacted our marriage. And then it has some steps of healing for couples if one or both bring things from their past into the relationship, which is what, like 90%, 95% of people today?
Blaine Neufeld [00:09:32]:
Yeah, for sure.
Adrienne Neufeld [00:09:33]:
So how old were you when you went to school to be a clinical person? Why can't I say it?
Blaine Neufeld [00:09:41]:
Because your brain's going through a lot today.
Adrienne Neufeld [00:09:43]:
Okay, thank you. Yeah.
Barbara Wilson [00:09:45]:
You're so kind. Um, I was 57 when I went back to school.
Adrienne Neufeld [00:09:50]:
Are you serious? That is so, uh, impressive and— I was gonna say motivating and inspiring, because I also—
Barbara Wilson [00:09:57]:
after I went through menopause, which we just talked about.
Adrienne Neufeld [00:10:00]:
So if you haven't listened to that, that's why I give you hope.
Barbara Wilson [00:10:03]:
Like, you know, there's life after. Like, my brain was still working. You're like a Moses, you know, like doing things I know I took psychology as an undergrad, but 30 years later I went back to school. Come on, more than 30 years later. Wow, I'm so impressed by the acceptance, you know, process to get your doctorate. So I had to go through interviews and write all these, and they accepted me. And I said, God, if you keep opening the door— I keep saying that— if you keep opening the door, I'll go through it. Wow.
Barbara Wilson [00:10:31]:
And he's used you in so many ways.
Blaine Neufeld [00:10:32]:
I love it. I love the obedience.
Adrienne Neufeld [00:10:34]:
Okay, so let's talk sex.
Blaine Neufeld [00:10:37]:
Yeah. And so I guess one of the, the things as you were kind of going on, on that story and normalizing it. How can couples that are listening almost assess where they're at in— for their sex life? Every sex life is going to be different. Every couple is going to be different. What is a great one? What is a we're stuck one? What is a, you know, what are even the signs? Like, how do you even know the signs of assessment of kind of maybe where they could be at? Or maybe there's techniques to—
Adrienne Neufeld [00:11:05]:
and maybe that is an impossible question. I don't know.
Barbara Wilson [00:11:08]:
Yeah, well, it's a lot of questions.
Adrienne Neufeld [00:11:09]:
Yeah, sorry, we just kept throwing them at you.
Barbara Wilson [00:11:11]:
What was this? All kind of—
Blaine Neufeld [00:11:12]:
you're the expert.
Adrienne Neufeld [00:11:13]:
I mean, you did go to school.
Blaine Neufeld [00:11:16]:
Brag a little bit.
Barbara Wilson [00:11:18]:
Time to show up.
Adrienne Neufeld [00:11:19]:
Prove your worth, Barb.
Barbara Wilson [00:11:23]:
Okay, so how do you know if you're having— if you have healthy sexual intimacy in your relationship?
Blaine Neufeld [00:11:29]:
Yes.
Barbara Wilson [00:11:30]:
Okay. How often are you having it?
Adrienne Neufeld [00:11:33]:
So, oh wait, can you have it too often?
Barbara Wilson [00:11:36]:
Well, that depends on how often the woman can can stand it physically.
Blaine Neufeld [00:11:41]:
Yeah, we'll talk about that later. But good question, good encouraging question.
Barbara Wilson [00:11:44]:
Could it be too often?
Adrienne Neufeld [00:11:46]:
Well, like, obviously if it's an addiction—
Barbara Wilson [00:11:49]:
not if both are enjoying it, if it's mutually enjoyable. But if it's, you know, one side more and there's pressure, then that's not okay. That's not healthy, enjoyable. So for frequency— oh, so first of all, there's got to be a a mutual sense of safety in the relationship where both people feel like they can show up and that their needs are being met, that they can communicate that. So that's like best case scenario. And a lot of times people can't talk about that yet, but, and you can still be learning to grow that even in, you know, even at our stage in our marriage, you know, like still learning like new fun ways, you know? But frequency, like, I, you know, I work with couples that they might not have had sex in months or years. That's not good.
Adrienne Neufeld [00:12:39]:
That's bad.
Barbara Wilson [00:12:40]:
That's not good.
Adrienne Neufeld [00:12:41]:
Okay.
Barbara Wilson [00:12:41]:
So, you know, I recommend, and everybody's going to go through different stages, like when you have young kids and stuff, obviously it's going to be seasonal. Yeah. But if you're not connecting sexually at least once a week, I think that's going to be a problem to stay, because there's so many things that happen chemically, hormonally, physiologically and emotionally that happens, and even spiritually when you connect sexually. Yeah. Um, you know, God says it's this amazing thing. There's on multiple layers, um, you're bonding in huge ways. And so if you're not— if that's not happening at least once a week, then you're kind of going to get into trouble because it's kind of like, you know, use it or lose it kind of thing, because the less you have it the less you feel desire for that.
Blaine Neufeld [00:13:28]:
Okay. So in a stage of ours where we have young kids, there is—
Adrienne Neufeld [00:13:32]:
Well, our youngest is 4.
Blaine Neufeld [00:13:34]:
Yeah.
Adrienne Neufeld [00:13:34]:
So we're not babies.
Blaine Neufeld [00:13:35]:
Babies.
Adrienne Neufeld [00:13:35]:
But they still need us a lot.
Blaine Neufeld [00:13:37]:
Yeah. But my drive, newsflash, would be higher than hers. One of the things that I would have discovered along the way was why wouldn't she be at the matching point of me? And because she isn't, now she doesn't love me. And I worked through a lot of issues in amongst that. But like, What is a way of communicating, well, my desires are way up here and your needs and desires are here. How do we meet in the middle?
Adrienne Neufeld [00:14:03]:
Like a, what's it called?
Barbara Wilson [00:14:05]:
Compromise, right?
Adrienne Neufeld [00:14:06]:
Thank you.
Blaine Neufeld [00:14:06]:
Is that a compromise or is it another word?
Adrienne Neufeld [00:14:08]:
Because that's what I was thinking.
Blaine Neufeld [00:14:10]:
Yeah.
Barbara Wilson [00:14:10]:
Ah, yeah, compromise feels like a, you know, a bit of a contract business thing. Um, yeah, it's, it's, you know, just being loving and kind, I guess. You know, understanding. I think that, and it's been a long time since my kids were young, but realizing how, if you're realizing that's important, important part of your relationship, then just like anything else, you're going to make time for it. And even if you're not, you know, even if it's for the wife, let's say, I'm not feeling like it. And, but you know, you, it's sometimes just an attitude of your mind too. Like if you can prepare for it, you know, and you realize this is gonna be good for us, it's just like eating, you know, your vegetables sometimes. And that doesn't sound like a very fun way to approach sex.
Barbara Wilson [00:15:02]:
But the thing is, is the intimacy that you experience, if it's, you know, pleasurable, but also safe, emotionally safe, is gonna be so worth it. It's like all the hard, it's like other hard things we do. And it's not always gonna be hard, but if you're going through a hard season sometimes, 'cause I remember when I was, you know, there were times when I was depressed or I wasn't feeling, I didn't feel anything. And I just made this decision, I'm just gonna, you know, surrender to whenever my husband wanted to have sex.
Adrienne Neufeld [00:15:35]:
Whenever?
Barbara Wilson [00:15:36]:
Well, and he wasn't unreasonable. Okay, okay.
Adrienne Neufeld [00:15:39]:
I mean, you're a good wife.
Barbara Wilson [00:15:40]:
Not whenever, okay, like not, you know, he was, Within reason.
Adrienne Neufeld [00:15:43]:
Yes.
Blaine Neufeld [00:15:45]:
Which is what?
Barbara Wilson [00:15:47]:
Not every night was within reason. It was outside of reason.
Adrienne Neufeld [00:15:50]:
Every other?
Barbara Wilson [00:15:51]:
That's too much.
Blaine Neufeld [00:15:52]:
3 times a week?
Barbara Wilson [00:15:52]:
3 times a week.
Blaine Neufeld [00:15:53]:
Hello.
Barbara Wilson [00:15:54]:
I think 3 times a week is—
Adrienne Neufeld [00:15:57]:
that's reasonable.
Barbara Wilson [00:15:58]:
Yeah.
Adrienne Neufeld [00:15:59]:
It's on the gooder, the better side?
Barbara Wilson [00:16:01]:
3 times a week. I think, like, I like to see my couples at least being intimate at least twice a week. 3 times a week is like, wow, okay, you're doing good. If it's more, Awesome. That's great. Yeah, if you can both handle it in terms of time and energy and—
Blaine Neufeld [00:16:19]:
right, right.
Barbara Wilson [00:16:21]:
So physically for a woman, you know, it's, it's a lot of—
Blaine Neufeld [00:16:25]:
okay, let's, let's change the lanes a bit because you're seeing people and you're working with people in this. What would be, um, yeah, what would be some goals that you set people when you see that there is a lack thereof?
Barbara Wilson [00:16:40]:
Yeah, so at least once a week is what I encourage. Now, if they aren't having it at all, then, you know, I like them to start, you know, even if it has to be, you know, planning it.
Blaine Neufeld [00:16:51]:
Yeah.
Barbara Wilson [00:16:52]:
'Cause spontaneity can be fun, but you know, anything that's important is important to plan.
Adrienne Neufeld [00:16:58]:
And it's like takes work, like we're working towards something here. So it doesn't always have to be like, poof, off. Off the cuff.
Barbara Wilson [00:17:05]:
Yeah, we don't have to have, you know, 5-star sex all the time.
Adrienne Neufeld [00:17:08]:
Yeah, right. Speak for yourself.
Barbara Wilson [00:17:12]:
It doesn't have to be everything. Doesn't— the stars don't all have to align, right?
Adrienne Neufeld [00:17:15]:
And especially if you're in a season of like where it's not healthy. It— to get healthy takes work and it takes patience and consistency. So it might not be movie-worthy, which it rarely is, um, in the beginning, but if you do the work, maybe you get there.
Barbara Wilson [00:17:32]:
Mm-hmm. Even though it's a big goal. It means being able to, you know, talk about maybe, for us, you know, we would talk a lot about what's your, what is your problem? Why don't you like to have sex? Or, and I honestly didn't know. I honestly didn't know.
Blaine Neufeld [00:17:48]:
And so what are some of the other reasons why? What are you hearing? What are the reasons why I don't want to have sex?
Barbara Wilson [00:17:54]:
A lot of times, well, there could be some trauma where things are getting triggered from their past. They may feel, you know, they don't, there hasn't been like good communication or kindness during the day, their needs, feeling like they haven't been heard. And then the husband expects them to have sex or the wife, vice versa. And that, you know, just feels, you know, contractual as opposed to something loving. So, you know, how you, the mood of the house can change. You know, if you're interested. And sometimes, you know, if we'd been having a rough day, you know, between the two of us, we might have to talk things out for an hour before we were intimate, right? Like it was, and I'd always say, well, this is a great time I can get Eric to talk. Open up.
Barbara Wilson [00:18:45]:
Yeah, all the things I've been wanting to talk about, 'cause he wants to have sex. So, and not that it was like, you know, tit for tat, but it was just a great opportunity to increase that kind of intimacy and, and then, you know, enjoy some physical intimacy where I felt like, okay, I feel like I've been heard.
Blaine Neufeld [00:19:03]:
Yeah.
Barbara Wilson [00:19:03]:
Um, it's, it, you know, it's, it's, it's multi-layered and it's very complicated.
Adrienne Neufeld [00:19:09]:
I, I think for me, at some one point in our relationship, like, it just didn't feel great because I wasn't willing to talk about it and say, this doesn't feel great. And then it was just very, like, mechanical. And I was like, I don't want to do that. Like, there's nothing in it for me really, you know, because we— I— we didn't really— we were still learning and I was just too afraid to say anything. So I was— it wasn't motivating for me, you know.
Barbara Wilson [00:19:35]:
Does that make sense? So then what, what made that change?
Adrienne Neufeld [00:19:39]:
We started figuring it out, started feeling good.
Blaine Neufeld [00:19:41]:
I would say too, like, there was an acceptance for you to admit that. Yeah, I got a wall up.
Adrienne Neufeld [00:19:47]:
I guess I carried a lot of shame with it, and then I was just not even letting myself maybe enjoy it. So it was like, we just have to do this and get it done, and that's what it is. It wasn't to connect. It wasn't— it was like, this is just part of marriage.
Blaine Neufeld [00:20:01]:
Yeah.
Adrienne Neufeld [00:20:01]:
And my mind had to change big time. Yeah.
Barbara Wilson [00:20:04]:
Yeah. So, so a lot of times it is the mindset for— and it was for me, but also understanding where did that mindset come from.
Adrienne Neufeld [00:20:12]:
Yeah, right, right.
Barbara Wilson [00:20:14]:
And for you, um, I mean, if, if you grew up and you, you know, you didn't have anything in your past, there could still be cultural mindsets that—
Adrienne Neufeld [00:20:22]:
definitely, like, we grew up in purity culture, so it was like great shame around— don't even— like, you need to cover— we need to wear a long sweater if you're wearing tights at youth because the boys will stumble. And like, there's stuff to that, like, I get it, but it was just so much shame-focused. It wasn't like out of a loving respect for your your, like, your peers. I feel—
Blaine Neufeld [00:20:44]:
yeah, it was just like rules. Yeah, more rules. And, you know, not to switch it a little bit, but to ask the question of, like, what is the goal of sex in marriage, right? Is, is almost a simple question, but it isn't a simple question, right? Because I'm analyzing it now of a selfish fulfillment of pleasure, which is what I saw it as too.
Adrienne Neufeld [00:21:05]:
I was like, it's just for him. It's just for him. It's just me serving, serving, serving. In the kitchen and in the bedroom, you know?
Barbara Wilson [00:21:12]:
Yeah, non-stop. Yeah, somebody—
Adrienne Neufeld [00:21:14]:
which I know wasn't your heart behind it at all. Like, you're— you want to serve, like, all the time.
Barbara Wilson [00:21:18]:
Yeah, right.
Adrienne Neufeld [00:21:19]:
But I wouldn't let you.
Blaine Neufeld [00:21:20]:
She wouldn't let me serve her.
Adrienne Neufeld [00:21:22]:
Yeah, huh.
Blaine Neufeld [00:21:23]:
You know what I'm saying?
Barbara Wilson [00:21:24]:
Right.
Blaine Neufeld [00:21:25]:
So I, I mean, I think she's analyzing us right now, and I'm okay with jumping into a session here, Barb, because we love being able to talk about it, to normalize it, and, and understand that it's such a very common tension in a lot of the marriages.
Barbara Wilson [00:21:39]:
So, well, okay, you think about just, you know, the sexual act. It's, it's— you have to let go for even for a woman to be able to have an orgasm. There's like, there's a little bit of this surrender that you have to—
Adrienne Neufeld [00:21:52]:
yeah, and I wasn't willing to do that in the beginning. Yeah, it could be for many years.
Barbara Wilson [00:21:55]:
It's scary to, you know, kind of surrender that. And then there's the sometimes that feeling of being out of control, like you're giving somebody else control over your body.
Adrienne Neufeld [00:22:05]:
Yeah, 100%.
Barbara Wilson [00:22:06]:
It's—
Blaine Neufeld [00:22:07]:
and she— we talked about personalities and—
Adrienne Neufeld [00:22:09]:
and I love autonomy.
Blaine Neufeld [00:22:11]:
Yeah.
Adrienne Neufeld [00:22:12]:
And I hate vulnerability and I love control. So that makes sex very hard. Right.
Barbara Wilson [00:22:17]:
And then there's all the, you know, body image and the shame associated with that. It's, it's, you know.
Blaine Neufeld [00:22:24]:
Yeah.
Barbara Wilson [00:22:25]:
But back to your question.
Blaine Neufeld [00:22:26]:
Yeah.
Barbara Wilson [00:22:26]:
You know, the Bible talks about at least 6, you know, different purposes for sex in marriage. And of course, one is to produce life, you know, physical life. But, um, it also creates life within the relationship, right? When you look at a couple, they're not having sex, it's like, it's like never watering a plant and it dies, right?
Blaine Neufeld [00:22:46]:
Right, right.
Barbara Wilson [00:22:47]:
Um, so it's a good symptom of where the relationship is. Um, if they're not having sex, I know there's a lot of other things going on. But it's also the bonding piece. And we release hormones and chemicals that— and that is the most amazing piece about God is just this long-term attachment. You know, we release oxytocin with every sexual experience in high levels. Now we release it other ways too. But that bonding, not only is the oxytocin does multiple things, not only does it create this deepening of your love and attachment. You feel stronger and closer to each other, but it also keeps that passion of sex alive, like the joy and attraction to each other.
Barbara Wilson [00:23:36]:
So when couples stop doing that, like there's so many things that they're missing in terms of that deepening of their love, the connection that they feel. And the nice thing about oxytocin is it increases the recall of positive events and decreases your recall of negative events. Oh, I didn't know that. The more you're bonding, you know, and we were talking about perimenopause and menopause, right? And going through hard times. Well, oxytocin is one of the things that can help you weather some of those difficulties in your marriage because your bond is getting so strong. And what, when you focus on you, the, you're focusing more on the good things about your relationship and those small annoying things become less, less predominant. And so that in itself is such a huge, I mean, we need oxytocin. That's how, you know, mothers bond to their children.
Barbara Wilson [00:24:28]:
Like, so the attachment can become so strong and we need that. And that helps us weather so many things in life. The other thing that is, is a deeper knowing. So you think about, you know, sexual intimacy is the deepest knowing that two people can have. I mean, you know your spouse in so many different, in a deeper, more vulnerable, surrendered way than in any other relationship you have, right?
Blaine Neufeld [00:24:57]:
Yes.
Barbara Wilson [00:24:58]:
And then also for protection, right? So when we're not being, you know, together, we are making our spouses vulnerable to temptation outside of our marriages, right?
Blaine Neufeld [00:25:11]:
Yeah.
Barbara Wilson [00:25:11]:
So, um, and then also for comfort, you know, it talks about, you know, uh, um, yeah, David comforting Bathsheba after her loss. So that—
Adrienne Neufeld [00:25:22]:
which loss?
Barbara Wilson [00:25:24]:
Of their first child.
Adrienne Neufeld [00:25:25]:
Oh, I thought you meant of her first husband, because didn't he kill him?
Barbara Wilson [00:25:29]:
I was like, okay, well, shady. That's another topic.
Adrienne Neufeld [00:25:32]:
Okay, but yes, okay, I've been diving into David, so I'm really reading David.
Blaine Neufeld [00:25:36]:
I've been reading regularly.
Barbara Wilson [00:25:37]:
David, there's some comfort.
Adrienne Neufeld [00:25:39]:
Fascinated with him right now.
Barbara Wilson [00:25:41]:
But yeah, so those are just some. So for comfort and support, you know, like when you're going through a hard time, like I was mentioning, going through depression, sexual intimacy, even though I didn't feel like it was very, felt very loving and very comforting to me because of the gentleness and how it was. So comforting, a deep knowing and vulnerability the bonding, protection, and, um, and to create life. I mean, there's a lot of good reasons, a lot of good reasons. And that's why sometimes it's not, it's not just about whether or not you want it. Well, sometimes it's your mindset of like, you know, this is something that our marriage will, will thrive with. Yeah.
Adrienne Neufeld [00:26:26]:
And then that overflows into your, your family. Like, absolutely, your kids will feel the, the secure bond that you have with each other.
Blaine Neufeld [00:26:36]:
And I always say to her, like, when she's stressed out and things like that, I'm like, you need it.
Adrienne Neufeld [00:26:42]:
He tells me I need it all the time, and sometimes he's right, and sometimes I'm like, no, I think you need it. I'm fine.
Barbara Wilson [00:26:49]:
Also, honestly, okay, I'm laughing because my husband would tell me the same thing, and I always know when he needs it.
Adrienne Neufeld [00:26:57]:
Always. It's like 2 days, oh, he's grumpy.
Blaine Neufeld [00:27:01]:
Hit a golf ball into the ocean.
Adrienne Neufeld [00:27:02]:
I feel a little manipulative because if he's like snappy at the kids or whatever, I'll be like, I just gotta get her done. And then everything's happy and I'm like, sweet.
Blaine Neufeld [00:27:13]:
Yeah, what is that in me?
Barbara Wilson [00:27:14]:
Well, because you're releasing like— okay, you're releasing a lot of amazing chemicals that can last for, you know, a couple days, a few days. But then the bonding, so you both of you feel connected So it creates a sense of well-being inside of you. You feel loved, you feel this connection, you have this, this, you know, dopamine.
Blaine Neufeld [00:27:36]:
Sure.
Barbara Wilson [00:27:36]:
And so yeah, I mean, it, it can— that can last for a couple days.
Blaine Neufeld [00:27:42]:
And so it does impact your whole family because I don't want to be in a position where I just get grumpy, or I do get grumpy, and I feel— this is one of our tensions earlier on, is the using of someone. I didn't feel healthy about that. It's like, well, if this is only for me to be— am I broken? Is something wrong with me? Why don't you love me? If you don't enjoy this, why don't you love me? So I was worried about the idea of that, you know, manipulation of, oh, I just need it, just service that and then be done. Well, and you bring up a lot of great points as to what that isn't.
Barbara Wilson [00:28:14]:
The complication too for men is they do feel more, um, they feel more disconnected the longer they've gone without sex. So for something about the sexual intimacy that makes them feel connected and loved and everything is right with the world, right? Women tend to need that more emotionally. And then sex is kind of just a, you know, a, you know, a nice addition to that. But that's why I think it works great. Cause if the husband is needing it to feel connected, And, but then the wife needs the emotional, and that draws, that draws that, their need to have that emotional connection from the husband. And then the sexual connection that happens for the husband, and it's intertwined, but it's like God has this whole cycle and yeah, of completing each other.
Adrienne Neufeld [00:29:02]:
Yeah.
Barbara Wilson [00:29:02]:
Yeah.
Adrienne Neufeld [00:29:03]:
That's so true.
Blaine Neufeld [00:29:04]:
I think about how I've learned to unpack Adrienne's mind talking about you get Eric and you get this opportunity to talk through a bunch of things. Okay. You got them. I also— and this is why it's important to get to know your spouse, right? I know that if I'm unable, or if I'm able to unpack a lot of the things in her mind, it's going to be a more enjoyable session, right? Let's say, i.e., hotels, getaways, the detachment from the kids' responsibilities. Um, I gotta think that that's a big piece of like just knowing your spouse. You see that a lot.
Barbara Wilson [00:29:37]:
Well, and I think you're making a good point because A husband being sensitive to allow their wife to download maybe before sexual intimacy makes them feel heard, makes them feel close.
Adrienne Neufeld [00:29:49]:
We will do that. And then here's all the things that are stressing me out right now. I just need you to wear them too, and then I can—
Blaine Neufeld [00:29:56]:
yeah, you're not alone, right?
Barbara Wilson [00:29:57]:
Yeah, yeah.
Adrienne Neufeld [00:29:58]:
It's hard when you feel alone in your stress.
Blaine Neufeld [00:30:01]:
Yeah.
Adrienne Neufeld [00:30:01]:
How am I supposed to dive into this, right?
Barbara Wilson [00:30:04]:
Yeah, right.
Blaine Neufeld [00:30:05]:
Because you're saying you let go of your mind I can't unless I, yeah, go ahead.
Barbara Wilson [00:30:09]:
Right. So to totally surrender yourself to that person, feeling like you're not just being used, but you're being heard and they're meeting that emotional connection. I mean, it's, it can be such a beautiful thing if we are not being completely selfish, even for the wife, not being completely selfish. Like, I don't want it and I don't care that you need it. Right? That's a little bit selfish, um, because realistically men do need it more. So I mean, I'm, I'm sorry, that is, uh, a hard reality. But if you're a loving, caring wife— and, and a lot of my friends that have really good, strong marriages, like, we, we learn to, you know, have that mindset to be able to care for our husbands. And not that we're doormats or anything, but right And that's the beauty of, you know, a long-term relationship and talking those things out.
Blaine Neufeld [00:31:03]:
For sure. A sidebar, which is I find fascinating. So a couple times ago we were intimate, and as we were doing whatever we were doing, she literally said, the lighting in here is horrible. Like, the woman's mind— please explain this because I am fully engaged in the moment. Is the women's mind all over the place?
Adrienne Neufeld [00:31:28]:
Oh yeah, we can think about 20 other things while things are going on. It's actually really hard to shut it off. Like, you have to actually try harder to shut your brain off than to be aware of like other things going on.
Blaine Neufeld [00:31:40]:
What?
Adrienne Neufeld [00:31:41]:
Yeah, it's opposite, I think.
Barbara Wilson [00:31:43]:
Well, because, um, for us to be emotionally like completely immersed, like, we need to be you know, kind of have that touch and caress and feel the arousal. But before we're really there, there's a lot of things that we can go through our minds.
Blaine Neufeld [00:32:00]:
Wild.
Barbara Wilson [00:32:01]:
Yeah, wild.
Blaine Neufeld [00:32:02]:
So how do we get you guys in that position? How can we help men discover?
Adrienne Neufeld [00:32:09]:
I don't know if there's anything that men can do.
Barbara Wilson [00:32:11]:
I think, yeah, this is— are you trying to fix— just fix it?
Adrienne Neufeld [00:32:14]:
Yeah, let's just not even go there, actually.
Blaine Neufeld [00:32:17]:
Because I want you to be in the moment.
Barbara Wilson [00:32:20]:
This is the exciting part about marriage, learning and growing. And I know, but the thing is, here's the thing, when your kids are gone— we've been empty nesters now since 2000. Kids come back, live, they bring their, their kids, but that's fun. But like, not responsible for children since about 2007. And I'm telling you, then a lot of things fall off of your mind.
Adrienne Neufeld [00:32:41]:
Yeah, it's when you have kids and lunches need to be made and I haven't shaved my legs in 3 weeks, and like, there's just so many things. Yeah, I don't know, it's just life. A lot of life that lives in our heads.
Blaine Neufeld [00:32:54]:
But you're still enjoying it, right? It's not like it's a—
Adrienne Neufeld [00:32:56]:
oh yeah, yeah, just my process is going to be different than your process.
Barbara Wilson [00:33:01]:
Sure is.
Blaine Neufeld [00:33:02]:
It really is.
Barbara Wilson [00:33:03]:
I don't really appreciate those differences, not trying to be the same.
Adrienne Neufeld [00:33:06]:
Yeah, wait, no, let me say that again.
Barbara Wilson [00:33:08]:
It's appreciating the differences and not trying to be the same or fix— she's not going to be the same as you, and it's okay.
Adrienne Neufeld [00:33:15]:
Thank you, Barb. I feel seen.
Blaine Neufeld [00:33:18]:
But I want her to enjoy it to the fullest.
Adrienne Neufeld [00:33:20]:
Yes, but you're not listening to what she's saying. But you're still trying to fix me. I'm not broken.
Blaine Neufeld [00:33:25]:
Okay, you are enjoying it. All you need to say is yes, I am enjoying it.
Adrienne Neufeld [00:33:28]:
I'm just gonna get there later and differently than you are.
Barbara Wilson [00:33:33]:
I can't wait.
Adrienne Neufeld [00:33:36]:
Oh gosh, I don't see what I'm dealing with here.
Barbara Wilson [00:33:38]:
Getting it at all. She may not totally experience it the same way you do.
Adrienne Neufeld [00:33:44]:
Never, ever.
Blaine Neufeld [00:33:45]:
We might not be changing the odds today. That's funny. Okay, so yes, so as time goes, can couples feel motivated, encouraged that it does get better, or are there some serious things that you need to make sure that you're talking about now so that sex is great in 10 years if you're maybe in our stage of life?
Barbara Wilson [00:34:06]:
Oh yeah, if there's some, if you know, there's some things that are a challenge and you'll know, then yeah, it's really important to get some help. I had, you know, I've had some women who have a lot of pain during sexual intercourse.
Adrienne Neufeld [00:34:20]:
Like physical pain?
Barbara Wilson [00:34:21]:
Yeah, yeah, vaginal pain, serious pain, pelvic pain. Sometimes that can be psychological, it can be from trauma, or there's like real physical conditions.
Adrienne Neufeld [00:34:31]:
Like pelvic floor stuff. Yeah.
Barbara Wilson [00:34:33]:
Right, or there's that vaginosis, but it's like where your vagina contracts and gets tight. So sometimes, you know, people will let that go on for years and years without getting any help and like really, you know, impact their relationship. When, and this is, I think I do that too. Like I kind of go, could I just take care of this myself? Rather than just going and getting some help. There's so many people out there that know so much more than you about all of these things. That's true. And people just suffer so much longer than they need to. And so if you're struggling, get, go get some help.
Barbara Wilson [00:35:12]:
If there's things in your past that, you know, maybe you have this, you know, negative view of sex or it feels shameful or unpleasant, go, you know, find out what that is. If there's something physical going on, you know, there's so many things that can help.
Adrienne Neufeld [00:35:27]:
Yeah, so you're saying like, one, it's like go to a doctor or a pelvic floor therapist, and then also, see like a counselor or a therapist or come to you, read your books.
Barbara Wilson [00:35:39]:
Yeah, exactly.
Blaine Neufeld [00:35:40]:
Yeah, because to the podcast.
Adrienne Neufeld [00:35:42]:
Yeah, I don't know if we'll— yeah, yes, we're doing what we can.
Barbara Wilson [00:35:45]:
But I, I think the message is don't let it go on so long. If you're, if you're struggling, it's okay to go get help. You're not broken, you just maybe need some support or some resources.
Adrienne Neufeld [00:36:00]:
Yeah, that's why I think that will help. So good if we can talk about it. Like, if you are struggling in your marriage, to have like a trusted friend that you could be like, I don't even know where to go for help, but I know we need it. And then you can just help them walk alongside and be like, let's go check out this person, or let's look into this thing, or, you know, don't suffer in silence either. Like, seek help.
Barbara Wilson [00:36:23]:
Yeah, I think back to your— when we started out the question, like, what was what, what has made it so hard. Of course, my generation, nobody was talking about sex. We all had to figure that out on our own. And it's been wonderful that there's so many more resources. We're so— even in the church, which I think complicated the shame and secrecy around sex, um, because we don't want to tempt anyone or cause anyone to stumble, right? But, um, you know, I, I just think we live in a great time that we can be able to share that, and that there's so many resources. So there's no excuse for, you know, if you're struggling, there's, there's multiple ways to be able to—
Adrienne Neufeld [00:37:04]:
doesn't have to be, that's the way it is.
Barbara Wilson [00:37:07]:
Exactly.
Adrienne Neufeld [00:37:07]:
Yeah, yeah.
Barbara Wilson [00:37:09]:
Because God wants you to have a fulfilling, loving, and passionate, you know, sexual intimacy long-term into marriage. And in fact, if you really work at it during those early years, even when life is tough, you are gonna reap the benefits. Mm-hmm. You know, when your kids are gone and you have that time to be together, it can be like so much more fun and free and without all of that, you know, shame and struggle you carried on in early years. I mean, that there's a so much blessing waiting for us when we work through some of those challenging times of life. That's just life. It's going to happen. Keep going.
Barbara Wilson [00:37:49]:
Don't quit. Yeah, because it can be so beautiful. And I'm just speaking from experience, you know. At 20 years, sex was not so great for me. I, I was obedient and let God heal me. And then, and then doing, doing the hard thing, and now we're reaping the benefit. In fact, I got this amazing note from my husband for my birthday, like, I can't believe that like, you know, life is so great for us and we're so passionately in love. And yeah, thank you, Lord.
Barbara Wilson [00:38:17]:
We, we, you know, God, his plan is so perfect, but we have a part in that, in being willing to, to make those steps to, to be able to reap that benefit.
Blaine Neufeld [00:38:28]:
Looking back, what, what is one thing that Eric really was very good at, at to encourage that journey in life?
Adrienne Neufeld [00:38:34]:
He seems like a patient guy. Was he super patient with you?
Barbara Wilson [00:38:37]:
Yes, and a super loving a gentle lover, like not pressured, always being— make sure I'm not being, you know, I'm not hurting, not pressuring me. You know, he could pout once in a while, but, you know, not like— not pressuring me. And that, that's the other thing, you know, like you can say no, but like, you know, don't be mean about it. And then, you know, offer an alternative. I always say, not tonight. Okay, you surprised me. I'm not ready tonight. I'm tired.
Barbara Wilson [00:39:08]:
Tomorrow night, so you'll be ready to go.
Blaine Neufeld [00:39:10]:
Your communication though would be off the charts in terms of what's expected, right? And what's allowed, what isn't allowed, what is— and you would have worked through that too.
Barbara Wilson [00:39:20]:
Oh yeah, like in talking about like sex.
Blaine Neufeld [00:39:22]:
Yeah.
Barbara Wilson [00:39:22]:
Oh yeah, absolutely.
Blaine Neufeld [00:39:24]:
Expectations.
Barbara Wilson [00:39:25]:
That's what I like. I don't like that.
Blaine Neufeld [00:39:27]:
Yeah. Yeah.
Barbara Wilson [00:39:28]:
Can you do that for me? I always like my back scratched. Yeah. Oh, this is better than an orgasm, right?
Adrienne Neufeld [00:39:33]:
Kind of like you.
Barbara Wilson [00:39:36]:
I get so itchy. I love my back Anyways, TMI. Totally don't— kids, you can't—
Adrienne Neufeld [00:39:41]:
we love Barb After Dark.
Blaine Neufeld [00:39:45]:
Well, as we transition to After Dark here, I was curious too of what the appropriateness would be in terms of toys and other things in a Christian marriage that, again, things that aren't always talked about because we're not totally sure what's—
Barbara Wilson [00:40:00]:
you know, this is such a great question because I was just talking about this last night in the Bible study that I wrote for healing. We do a whole one chapter on what's allowed, what's not allowed. So we go through like, what's— what does the Bible actually say that's absolutely prohibited? Um, but then what are— what are the caution areas? And so we use that verse that Paul said, everything is permissible but not everything is beneficial. Everything is permissible but I will not be mastered by anything. And so there's 3 questions, and I'm sure I got them from someone else, but, um, they're really good. So the first one, so when you're thinking about in bringing things into your relationship, you want to ask 3 questions. First of all, is it prohibited in scripture? So let's say, for example, pornography would definitely be prohibited, right? Because it's gonna— it's going to answer all the questions. The first question, is it prohibited? Then is it beneficial? And when it comes to sexual intimacy, does it involve anyone else? So if it's prohibited, that's a no.
Barbara Wilson [00:40:58]:
If it's not prohibited, Then is it beneficial? So then you're asking the question, you know, does this work for you? Do you like this? You know, a lot of times one will want something the other one doesn't feel comfortable with, right? And then they get called a prude because they don't want to do it. Well, that's not nice. I mean, it's just not comfortable. Maybe I'll, maybe I'll feel comfortable another time, but you know, not this time. But then the third question is the defining one. If it's involving anyone else, like pornography or anything, then it's clearly not allowed inside relationships. So Then as far as different sexual activities, as long as that's enjoyable by both, totally permissible. When it comes to toys, something that is enjoyable by both, and that especially for women, having something that can help with an orgasm is really, really important.
Barbara Wilson [00:41:46]:
Because again, that is a very complicated thing. It's so easy to interrupt an orgasm for a woman and then it's gone. Again, back to the mind, they really need their minds focused. Um, so getting rid of everything that could be a distraction. But sometimes having like, you know, something that can help with stimulating, and for that is, is really helpful. And my husband and I, we've kind of come— become more relaxed, as you know, things that I would have thought, oh, that's absolutely no. I've, you know, we've, we've enjoyed some different things as we've gotten older. And feel more relaxed and be able to talk about those things.
Barbara Wilson [00:42:25]:
But those, those are the questions that I, I think are really good, really good tools to be able to say, is this something that we can be enjoying in our relationship?
Blaine Neufeld [00:42:34]:
I think it's worth noting too, we've had a couple conversations with different couples in this exploration phase of encouragement, etc., but one of the red flags was when toys were involved. There would have been a concern of individual use versus couple use, or one party doesn't feel needed anymore. Yes, yes, yes. That's something that you run into a fair bit.
Barbara Wilson [00:42:57]:
Um, well, yeah, okay, so if you're talking about like, you know, um, toys in, in terms of like, you know, um, sexual stimulation. Yeah, I mean, that God created sex for the husband and wife. You want to be careful about doing that on your own because you're really denying your spouse because you're satisfying yourself and you're not, you know, open. Um, when it comes to not feeling needed, okay, that's something that would be worth some communication. Yeah, I think as long as you know, you're doing it together and it's, it's part of your sexual intimacy and you're, you've talked about it. If the other person doesn't feel needed, well then you need to adjust.
Adrienne Neufeld [00:43:35]:
Yeah. And like setting healthy boundaries I think is important, which would be communication, setting healthy boundaries around, around like we only use these things together.
Barbara Wilson [00:43:45]:
Yes.
Adrienne Neufeld [00:43:45]:
You know, it's, it's a shared experience.
Barbara Wilson [00:43:47]:
Exactly. Yeah, exactly. That's just honoring each other, right? Yeah, yeah.
Blaine Neufeld [00:43:52]:
And your 3 questions answer that, right? So is it beneficial to us? Then sure, okay, let's understand and explore that. Yeah, yeah, I love it.
Barbara Wilson [00:44:01]:
Yeah.
Blaine Neufeld [00:44:02]:
Okay, well, the big takeaway for me is, is these 6 biblical principles around why sex— what is sex? I think that shook me in the best way.
Adrienne Neufeld [00:44:12]:
Like, if people can know the benefits and not just physical but emotional, like how it— like you said, it's like watering a plant and your marriage can flourish. Yeah, yeah, that's so helpful. Yeah, yeah, because it's like, okay, it's not just him who wants it. Exactly, you know. Yeah, it's for bigger reasons.
Barbara Wilson [00:44:31]:
Yeah, much bigger reasons.
Adrienne Neufeld [00:44:32]:
Yeah, that's really good.
Barbara Wilson [00:44:33]:
And for kingdom reasons.
Blaine Neufeld [00:44:35]:
Absolutely.
Barbara Wilson [00:44:37]:
So good.
Adrienne Neufeld [00:44:37]:
Yeah, so true. Yeah.
Blaine Neufeld [00:44:38]:
Anything else, Barb? Anything else we should know? You're the expert.
Barbara Wilson [00:44:44]:
Um, what do we— what have we talked about? Frequency, having safe, you know, being safe emotionally. Um, I think, you know, I'd probably just add, if, you know, you've had childhood sexual abuse, it really can impact how you view sex. You, you know, women or men will shut down, want to avoid If you are the spouse that is, you know, one spouse often will have a stronger sex drive than the other, and it's not always a man, it's sometimes a woman. I'll often, I'll sometimes be surprised if it's a man because typically men, you know, huge, a huge ratio difference of, um, interest. Yeah. So, you know, and I often find a similar thing, like there could be For men, if they're lower drive, I always look, okay, is your testosterone levels, do they need to be checked? And if there's been abuse for a man in their past, that can really affect their libido. And they might go to pornography and avoid sexual intimacy because of shame and performance. But the same can happen for women.
Barbara Wilson [00:45:59]:
And then if there's been any, for women more than men, like sexual trauma, like, you know, some sort of rape or assault. But then, and then again, just the cultural view of sex, which I think women bear the brunt of that a little bit more because of pornography and the view, how it devalues women, devalues sex. We carry a lot of that and a lot of expectation on us to be something that God never intended. And I think that's important to be able to talk about. If any of those things are part of your— you've brought into your relationship, past relationships, especially if there was abuse in the relationship. Really important not to just dismiss the impact of that, that it really can have an impact. And again, don't wait to get help for that.
Blaine Neufeld [00:46:47]:
Yeah, right. Yeah, I love it. Yeah, I love it. I think it's always fun to normalize these conversations in a healthy way, God-honoring, kingdom mindset, couple marriage couples and all these things can be inspired by some of these conversations. So if you're one of those that need help, go seek help. We, we support that absolutely. If those are a couple that is looking to explore, do it together in a God-honoring way. So, and if you do that, babe, what happens?
Adrienne Neufeld [00:47:14]:
Might just change.
Blaine Neufeld [00:47:15]:
I think they will. And thank you so much, Barb. Thank you for coming on and doing what you do.
Barbara Wilson [00:47:19]:
Talk to my fellow Canadians.
Blaine Neufeld [00:47:21]:
Yes, it is always And then next time we get Eric on because he's got a story to tell, doesn't he?
Barbara Wilson [00:47:26]:
He will tell you the truth. All the things that I made sound really good, he'll tell you the truth. Yeah, exactly.
Blaine Neufeld [00:47:33]:
Well, we thank you so much and thanks for joining us. We'll see you guys next time.