Blaine Neufeld [00:00:00]:
Here's a question that starts more fights than money or sex. And the question is, why do I even have to ask? One person is exhausted from carrying everything. The other is overwhelmed by expectations they didn't know existed. Have you ever felt like the project manager in your own home? You aren't just doing the dishes. You're the only one that noticed them needing to be done. Today we explore why you never asked is the most painful sentence in a marriage.
Kevin Thompson [00:00:26]:
There we go. The most. The most painful, most kind of interesting. Hey, welcome back to Shane's the odds for marriage and family. We're never meant to be a game of chance. Kevin A. Thompson with you. Blaine and Adrienne, new fel.
Blaine Neufeld [00:00:36]:
This is good to see y'. All. Great to be here.
Kevin Thompson [00:00:38]:
Here we are, another fight club.
Blaine Neufeld [00:00:41]:
This is really helping people. You know that.
Kevin Thompson [00:00:43]:
Is it?
Blaine Neufeld [00:00:43]:
I. I've been. Yes. No, it actually is. And. And I have had a lot of people come up and say thank you for talking about those things that need to be talked about and are applicable. So that's encouraging.
Kevin Thompson [00:00:55]:
That's good stuff for the season ahead of us. So if you have a fight, you're welcome to go to changetheodds.com, take a couple of assessments. You can tell what the fight actually is. I'm sorry, you can tell us what the fight is. We will then tell you what's going on within your lives. Break it down. We have a whole series of how we go about doing that. Adrienne, what so far in all of these fight clubs, what is that you've kind of learned about yourself that maybe you hadn't thought of previously?
Adrienne Neufeld [00:01:21]:
I've. I'm learning that I like predictability and certainty. I kind of never. I mean, I knew that I'm. I'm a little. Or, you know, I think I've grown. I think I've had seasons of anxious attachment, and now I'm more secure. I've also had seasons of avoidant attachment.
Adrienne Neufeld [00:01:39]:
So it's a possibility that you can have more than one attachment style. But you grow and you. If you choose to grow and learn, you can become secure.
Kevin Thompson [00:01:49]:
Yeah. Which is why one reason in love styles, I prefer to break it down as secure attachment, non secure attachment. Just that simple dichotomy instead of having to be, ooh, is this anxious? Is this avoiding? Now it comes in handy and we'll look at it and there's an assessment there to assist you in that. But I think it's a misnomer of this idea of, oh, I'm just anxiously attached. That's Just who I am. No, because one minute I'm securely attached with somebody, I'm anxious with somebody else, I'm avoidant with somebody else. These are these more defined relationships and seasons of life than they define the totality of who we are 100%.
Blaine Neufeld [00:02:22]:
And you've said this lots where she's getting to know herself more, so she almost becomes automatically more secure because she's, like, naming it and claiming it and then working on it and then is growing, so.
Kevin Thompson [00:02:33]:
No, that's exactly right. Dan Siegel says you name it to tame it.
Blaine Neufeld [00:02:36]:
Yeah.
Kevin Thompson [00:02:37]:
And so as we begin to understand ourselves, it actually begins to tame us into more healthy kind of ways to interact. And as that, not only does it make us easier to love, it then gives us compassion and empathy toward our spouse to where we start understanding.
Blaine Neufeld [00:02:52]:
You typically say you name it to blame it, because I get blamed for.
Kevin Thompson [00:02:55]:
Oh, there we go. Oh, that's a whole different.
Adrienne Neufeld [00:02:57]:
Fired right out of the gate.
Kevin Thompson [00:02:58]:
Let's just start a fight. Let's forget this fight.
Blaine Neufeld [00:03:00]:
Let's go with it.
Kevin Thompson [00:03:01]:
It's a joke. So this fight we're looking at today is an interesting one, because there's some fights that, man, the moment the issue happens, it happens. The fight takes place. This, to me, is one that is so related to attachment because it simmers. Just these. Almost like paper cuts, right? These little shots that are happening, they hurt, but they bleed it out. They build up over time. And the moment now that the one spouse truly feels unseen, unheard, and valued, unloved, like when they are depleted and now this thing happens that they've bore the brunt of so many times, but now in a depleted state.
Kevin Thompson [00:03:42]:
It happens, man. The fight's on. Explosion. Yes. And it. I think it. I think it simmers, and then it explodes. 100, right? And we'll see that today.
Kevin Thompson [00:03:50]:
Who's got who?
Adrienne Neufeld [00:03:51]:
I'll do it.
Kevin Thompson [00:03:51]:
All right, I got it. Here's the fight that's been texted. You can go to change the ads, or you can go on Instagram. Let us know your fight. We'd love to hear it. Break it down on the show. We won't even use your names unless we accidentally do so.
Adrienne Neufeld [00:04:01]:
Like this one. I won't say the name. Okay. Hey, fight club. I'm exhausted. I do bedtime most nights. I manage the house and the kids. My husband, Blank, is kind, but he disappears into work.
Adrienne Neufeld [00:04:14]:
When I finally snapped and I said, I feel alone, he calmly said, you never asked. That broke me. I shouldn't have to ask. Yeah, I get that. I am a type 2 with anxious attachment. He's a type 5 avoidant. How do we stop hurting each other?
Kevin Thompson [00:04:30]:
Oh, there we go.
Adrienne Neufeld [00:04:32]:
So she.
Kevin Thompson [00:04:33]:
She.
Adrienne Neufeld [00:04:34]:
She feels alone, and she's like, you never, like, what helped me see me. He's like, well, you didn't even ask me to do it. Why would I feel.
Kevin Thompson [00:04:44]:
So they've gone to changetheodds.com, they've taken a love style assessment. They've taken a lead style assessment that probably took them a total of five minutes. And just by having that information alone, we're gonna be able to break this.
Blaine Neufeld [00:04:55]:
Down and change their odds.
Kevin Thompson [00:04:56]:
And change their odds.
Blaine Neufeld [00:04:58]:
I'm ahead of it too early.
Kevin Thompson [00:05:00]:
So as I'm reading that, I automatically have a question. As I'm listening, Adrienne, to you, read this. Literally, I wrote this down. Line number two. I do bedtime most nights, and my first thought was, why? Like, why?
Adrienne Neufeld [00:05:15]:
Where is he? Or are you choosing to.
Kevin Thompson [00:05:18]:
No, I'm blaming him. I'm not blaming him. Oh, got it.
Adrienne Neufeld [00:05:20]:
Got it.
Kevin Thompson [00:05:20]:
Got it, too. How is that normal?
Blaine Neufeld [00:05:24]:
Kevin's always on the side of the woman.
Kevin Thompson [00:05:25]:
Just so you know.
Adrienne Neufeld [00:05:29]:
What if he shift work? What if he's like a firefighter?
Kevin Thompson [00:05:32]:
Okay, so that's totally understandable. That's totally understandable. If that's the situation, I have no problem with that whatsoever. If it's any other situation, I'm already frustrated.
Blaine Neufeld [00:05:43]:
But he disappears into work.
Kevin Thompson [00:05:45]:
Yeah. So.
Blaine Neufeld [00:05:46]:
Meaning he doesn't need to. He doesn't need. He's. I can visualize this. This gentleman at home and say, you got bedtime, babe? I'm going to just do a couple more emails.
Kevin Thompson [00:05:55]:
Oh, yeah? Yeah.
Blaine Neufeld [00:05:56]:
Do you really need a couple more emails? Right? It's like, you got bedtime. Thanks, babe. See you later. So it's like, it feels a bit more as if it is a choice.
Adrienne Neufeld [00:06:06]:
Rather than a necessity.
Kevin Thompson [00:06:07]:
Yeah, that makes sense. All right, so let's break down their combination, right? So they take their love style, their lead style. Those come together, and now you have a formula of what can be successful for them and then also what can be a great deal of danger. So it says. So she. Right, she's the two. She's the two with anxious attachment. He's the five with avoidant attachment.
Kevin Thompson [00:06:30]:
So think about it too. Now, Bonnie wants relationship, but outward focused. So these people, many times are a ton of fun. Get things. These are get things done kind of people serve like crazy. Think about what's going on underneath the table. They're serving as a way to get relationship with you. So they're unconsciously to themselves, they don't realize they're doing this.
Kevin Thompson [00:06:53]:
They're serving so that you will have to eventually serve them if they're ever in need. Although these people are rarely in need. Right. But that's how they're creating that relationship and that bond. So five now is going to be certainty, like me, but inwardly paying attention to the world. So tend to be extremely reserved people, very data driven. Think about, they can tell you everything that could possibly go wrong and yet they're going to be sufficient. They're going to take care of themselves.
Kevin Thompson [00:07:21]:
So notice that dynamic. How do these two people fall in love? Here, here's how it is. She's serving everybody, taking care of everybody. And she sees this guy who can take care of himself, right? And this idea of it relaxes her. Well, this guy who is so used to being so self sufficient sees this woman who can take care of him and that's a draw to her, to him. And so there's this power in this relationship. You can automatically see how they fall in love just from their strengths. That's not even the weaknesses.
Kevin Thompson [00:07:51]:
This is just the strengths of who they actually are. So let's look at what their superpowers are now in this moment. So she's going to be warm, engaging, outwardly focused, so keenly aware of what's going on outside of herself, the needs that are there. She's going to see a million needs to be taken care of, always working on them, very relationally aware. Because that bonding side of things, he is going to be steady, wise, thoughtful, emotionally. You can't rock him in any way. Many fives, not all many fives are your IT people. You're a man, they can figure anything out.
Kevin Thompson [00:08:26]:
They can read a manual and get it done. A lot of accountants would be within this. That twos tend to be a little bit more emotionally driven because they're outward. So they're not aware of their own emotions, what's going on. They don't see how their emotions might impact other people. Twos. Twos can get things done, especially around church. Twos are great people to have.
Kevin Thompson [00:08:45]:
Fives are great people to have too, because then you have wi fi at the same time, right? So now together, she's creating a connection and he's creating this peace and this calm in what's going on. But that's them when they're healthy, what happens whenever they're unhealthy, Twos tend to overextend themselves. So she's serving everybody and not recognizing her own needs and what's going on. And so he might grow frustrated at times because of how much she's serving other people and not the family or him or something like that that could be going on. And then anytime he feels uncertain, he's out. He is withdrawn because he's going to need think about the combination. He is going to be both a five and avoidant. So avoid.
Kevin Thompson [00:09:35]:
It tends to. I'm gonna go be by to myself because I don't want this tension. A 5 just naturally needs to be by themselves, to think through, to process. So it's almost like a double whammy here on the negative side for him. Do y' all resonate with any of their personalities of what's going on? Because these are different personalities from the two of y'.
Adrienne Neufeld [00:09:55]:
All.
Kevin Thompson [00:09:55]:
Radically different.
Blaine Neufeld [00:09:56]:
I'm a server. I'm a helper.
Kevin Thompson [00:10:00]:
Yeah.
Blaine Neufeld [00:10:01]:
What? Even as I'm listening to this, I'm thinking of couples that I know. And I'm thinking about how I've tried, attempted to fix him in these scenarios and, like, you know, tease and. And put them into a position of discomfort because it's good for them. Right. It's like, you know, let's. I don't know. Yeah, it's.
Kevin Thompson [00:10:20]:
I like it. Let's fix him. Yeah.
Blaine Neufeld [00:10:21]:
Yeah.
Kevin Thompson [00:10:23]:
Instead of just appreciating who we've buried in this moment. So as an. As an 8, 8 and twos are very similar, by the way. So they're looking at the world a little bit differently. What they're desiring underneath, a little bit different. But if you have big personalities, most of the time you're like, that's an eight or a two. One of them. We'll just have to see what's underlying.
Kevin Thompson [00:10:43]:
So you'll have a lot of affection for a 2 and what's going on there. So let's look at a couple of the shadow sides of what could be a danger here. And then we'll get down into the actual fight. A2 unconsciously is keeping score of how much help is going on.
Adrienne Neufeld [00:11:02]:
Oh, really?
Kevin Thompson [00:11:03]:
Yes. So think about. They want bonding, right? So they're bonding outward, so they want relationship. How do I get this relationship? Whereas an achiever is going to go accomplish. A three is going to go accomplish something, so you value them. A2 is going to serve you, so you value them. But in the back of their mind, they're going, well, I took dinner and I did this and I did that and I did this and I did that with this expectation of. Look at how much how far ahead I am.
Blaine Neufeld [00:11:28]:
Yeah. In the scorecard.
Kevin Thompson [00:11:29]:
So when I need it. Yeah, that's very interesting. And they have to be there.
Blaine Neufeld [00:11:33]:
And then when the other person doesn't fulfill that and they've kept score for 15 years, and then they're like, hold on, I've done all this for you. Can you not do this one thing for me? What are you talking about? What do you mean you've done all this thing? You know, so. Yeah, that's exactly right. This is.
Kevin Thompson [00:11:51]:
And so, so. And then the 5 is. Think about a 5 lives in this world where resources are scarce.
Blaine Neufeld [00:11:57]:
Yeah.
Kevin Thompson [00:11:58]:
And so they're always making sure that they're protecting the resources. Many times A5 will come across as extremely reserved. And they don't know this, but literally what? Even their body is conserving energy that way. If they have to extend it, they'll go extend it. So, I mean, they can work hard and be late and do all those kind of things, but they're going to live in this constant state of conserving their energy so that whenever it's demanded of them, they'll go do it. So notice what's been set up here. You have this idea of she is quick to see problems and go solve them. He sees problems, but he doesn't want to extend himself in a place that it's not necessary because that's going to use energy that he's conserving for later.
Kevin Thompson [00:12:42]:
And so on the good side of this, the power couple here, this is a couple that can help you and get things done because they're going to be smart, they're going to be wise. She's going to bring the energy, he's going to bring the knowledge and the information. She's going to be outward focused and be aware of and see problems that maybe other people don't even see. He's going to be inward focused to know what's going on behind the scenes and underneath. And how can we take care of this? Can we not take care of this? This is a couple that can do amazing things. However, when they're not in a healthy spot, a lot of the workload's gonna fall to her. Because one thing that we don't talk about, that we need to talk about a little bit more is there's another layer that's thrown in on top of this. And this is cultural gender expectations.
Kevin Thompson [00:13:26]:
Ooh, right.
Adrienne Neufeld [00:13:27]:
Yeah.
Kevin Thompson [00:13:28]:
So you have the personalities at play, you have the attachments at play. Now you have a cultural gender expectation within the family dynamic where it's Just assumed the wife is kind of more in charge of the house and the kids. It's just assumed she's going to take care of more of these things, and I'm going to go over here and do my thing. So I think all those things come in together and let's get back to the actual fight. What happened is he disappears into work, and then finally. So this has been going on, and then she does bedtime all the time when finally I snapped. And what caused the snapping? Him asking or making the statement? Well, you never ask.
Blaine Neufeld [00:14:06]:
Yeah. I also see I'm exhausted. Meaning I'm unhealthy right now because as a doer, as a server, as a goer, you're depleted. I'm exhausted. That's your cry for help. Right. And he's not hearing it and not seeing it. She's in a bad spot.
Blaine Neufeld [00:14:21]:
And then he says, well, he never even asked.
Kevin Thompson [00:14:23]:
Yes.
Adrienne Neufeld [00:14:24]:
And that's a little jab.
Kevin Thompson [00:14:27]:
Well, that's.
Blaine Neufeld [00:14:27]:
That's because you're in the office, man. That's why I'm getting mad.
Kevin Thompson [00:14:32]:
That's the downside of. I mean, the shadow side of it, too, is again, think about an outward focus. So they don't have an inward view of themselves. So they don't know when their tank is empty.
Blaine Neufeld [00:14:43]:
Correct.
Kevin Thompson [00:14:43]:
Until it is.
Blaine Neufeld [00:14:44]:
Until it is.
Kevin Thompson [00:14:45]:
Yeah. So at the. At the moment that. That, you know, Adrienne, you might have a little bit of a sense of, man, I need a girls night, or I need this.
Adrienne Neufeld [00:14:52]:
I'm like, it's foreign to me to also just be depleted. Like, I know way in advance when I'm getting.
Blaine Neufeld [00:14:56]:
It happens often. Girls nights happen very often because we're deplet.
Kevin Thompson [00:15:01]:
So that's the dyadic view. You have more insight to yourself than this person has.
Blaine Neufeld [00:15:05]:
That's cool.
Kevin Thompson [00:15:05]:
And so they won't. They won't know it until they feel it.
Adrienne Neufeld [00:15:09]:
Yeah.
Kevin Thompson [00:15:09]:
And. But then by that point, you're already in panic mode.
Adrienne Neufeld [00:15:12]:
Yeah. Panic attacks.
Blaine Neufeld [00:15:13]:
That's cool for you. Like, as a friend. Now let's slide into the friend zone. If you got a wife or a woman that is your friend, a girl, that's your friend that is like this.
Kevin Thompson [00:15:22]:
Who. Who's who?
Blaine Neufeld [00:15:24]:
Adrienne has a friend. And you can be like, you're going to get depleted here soon. I'm aware of this. This is one of my superpowers as someone that is aware of girls nights. It's like, you need this. And you can go and actually talk to the other guy and simply say, hey, just so you know, she won't tell you, but her tank's running out. You should do a little something something for her and let her have a girl's night or work the system. Because he.
Blaine Neufeld [00:15:50]:
I can tell you, he is not thinking I should babysit the kids so my wife can go and do the thing. Never. He is thinking I've got to do da da da da da da in the office to make sure she's got it. She'll tell me if she's hurting.
Kevin Thompson [00:16:03]:
Yeah, that's what he thinks.
Blaine Neufeld [00:16:04]:
And she'll never tell her.
Kevin Thompson [00:16:06]:
And they can both grow in this because there is this power of, hey, how can I help my spouse? I know what her personality is. I know the shadow side of her. So what do I need to be aware of? So he can literally turn this into a project and recognize, look, he can maybe have a better insight of her than she has for herself. And in that she is depleting her resources and that's bad for us as a family. How can I reinvigorate her in some way? But also, we got to be very careful about this. She also has a responsibility. She can grow. You're not stuck.
Kevin Thompson [00:16:36]:
All right, this is her lead style. She generally leads like an 8. I'm sorry, like a 2. Bonding outward. However she can grow, she can learn how to get more in touch with herself. It would be really powerful for her to have a friend who is a four. Go on. Who is inward, inward, inward attention.
Kevin Thompson [00:16:57]:
So the same kind of idea of I want bonding, I want relationship, but now somebody who is more inward focused. And basically, how can I learn from her to be so in tune with her own emotions? She can benefit from being friends with Adrienne here, who. I can do both. I can be outward and inward and to grow in that area to where she can begin to learn more. What are the signs that I'm depleted?
Blaine Neufeld [00:17:18]:
Because people like that too. They'll feel guilty for taking one for themselves.
Kevin Thompson [00:17:22]:
Absolutely.
Blaine Neufeld [00:17:22]:
So it's like, no, no, no, I don't deserve it. I need to help a bit more. And then I'll do a girls trip. No, no, he can't survive on his own. Because if he, you know, is left, I do everything anyway. So I can't leave. And it's just beat down, beat down, beat down.
Kevin Thompson [00:17:37]:
Yeah. And then we, we throw the attachment layer on. On top of this, she's anxious, he's avoidant. So she's anxious. So she's not going to sit, say what her needs are. She's just going to hope that you see them, which is Already setting up the fight. He doesn't want to be aware of anything. This is a double duty, especially for a five.
Kevin Thompson [00:17:56]:
Awareness means responsibility. He doesn't want that because ignorance is blessed. Yes, I'm going to have to complete my energy. So you can see how this couple has such potential for so many strengths. But you can also see how they will rock along being great for a long time, and then suddenly an explosion is going to happen and neither one's going to understand why. And it's going to rock them for a while, and then they're going to get back to better. And here's the temptation is we go, oh, well, that was just a moment. And what we don't know is we're setting up the next one that's going to come.
Kevin Thompson [00:18:28]:
And if they get into an unhealthy place, what happens is the length of time between the fights gets shorter and shorter. The roller coaster becomes far more emotional. So it's great if they can go ahead and fix this and begin to figure out what's going on. There is this great, this big idea. It's a very common word these days in married life. Maybe you've heard it or not, but basically this is a fight around what's called mental load. Have you heard that phrase before or not? Maybe we've talked about it a little bit. So mental load is the idea of who is carrying the weight, not just of doing something, but of knowing that something needs to be done and what happens.
Kevin Thompson [00:19:09]:
Especially let's get into gender stereotypes here because that's playing in on this as well. In gender stereotypes, generally speaking, we expect the woman to carry the mental load of so many things, and the man doesn't carry the mental load of it. And then whenever a man does a couple things after being told to do things, he's like, oh, we're sharing this responsibility, not recognizing that there is a weight to just knowing something has to be done. So let's go with the dentist. When do the kids go to the dentist? Okay. In many relationships, it's the wife who remembers when the kids need to go to the dentist, who identifies what dentist they're going to go to, who makes the appointment, who checks their schedule of what's going on, guarantees everything in the situation is exactly where it needs to be. And let's say, hypothetically, one time she asks him, hey, can you take the kids to the dentist at this moment? He's like, yes, I will. And then he feels like, I, I do the dentist.
Adrienne Neufeld [00:20:01]:
But it's not even that. It's like, oh, they need to brush their teeth so they don't get cavities so I don't have to take them to the dentist. And then the other spouse isn't. Take. Isn't like, making their teeth a priority. It's like, okay, like, why. Why aren't you making them brush their teeth at night? I have to do that, too. I have to flop.
Adrienne Neufeld [00:20:21]:
I mean, it's just, like, it weighs on you.
Kevin Thompson [00:20:23]:
Yes.
Adrienne Neufeld [00:20:24]:
And it's not just the dentist. It's everything leading up to the dentist.
Kevin Thompson [00:20:27]:
Yeah, well, the dentist is one example of explosion teeth.
Blaine Neufeld [00:20:31]:
Oh.
Kevin Thompson [00:20:32]:
So that's now one issue.
Adrienne Neufeld [00:20:33]:
It's like. Doesn't feel like a big thing, but. Yeah, when it layers itself on top of it in your mind, it feels massive.
Kevin Thompson [00:20:39]:
No, absolutely. And then it's a million.
Adrienne Neufeld [00:20:42]:
And it's. Yeah, that's just the dentist. It's like lunches. It's all the things.
Kevin Thompson [00:20:45]:
Yes. No, that's exactly right. So I think. I think Adrienne's on board. So. So here's. I think for men specifically, but in all couples, it could be different for other couples, But I think men specifically, we need to recognize the presence of mental load and then begin to figure out what of that can I take. Now, in most relationships, men take some.
Kevin Thompson [00:21:06]:
The problem is it's not an equal bearing of what's going on. So Jenny never thinks about our finances. She doesn't think about tax season. She doesn't think about paying our bills. None of those things. It doesn't have to. Why I take care of that. It's not a big deal.
Kevin Thompson [00:21:20]:
The problem is that I do that in, like, three areas, and she does that in 37. And then I can go, oh, well, we're just sharing this. I mean, this is just. Man, we're just living life together, sharing it. She's exhausted, and I'm over here kind of living in denial.
Blaine Neufeld [00:21:35]:
Yeah. The big takeaway so far for me is when you said, when he needs to be aware of her tank, because I think that applies to so many more just marriages. It's like if he is worried about taxes and payroll and all these, you know, five things. They're big things. They're big things that he's doing. The biggest is her tank. Because if he goes and says, I wonder if her tank is full. I got to get out of my work stuff and go check in.
Blaine Neufeld [00:21:59]:
How are you doing, babe? And it's like, actually, it gives validation. Say, I'm exhausted. About what? You know, she doesn't need to ask. You need to ask. And so, like, if he. His focus is filling up her tank and jumping in and doing various things and getting her tank full, she can do a lot of those things on the regular day, but it's the days when it's empty. So it's like, just make that tank a focus. One of your focuses every day of.
Blaine Neufeld [00:22:26]:
I wonder how she's doing. That should be a good question to say to your wife.
Kevin Thompson [00:22:30]:
Yeah, no, no doubt. We talk about in friends, partners and lovers that one of the. One of the powers of marriage is that every single day I have somebody who wakes up who's thinking about me and how to make my day better. And she's waking up every day knowing I'm thinking about her and how can I make her better when I. We don't have to bear this life alone in a healthy marriage. And one thing I think that can happen here from a strength standpoint is you can always leverage who you are, what your lead style is. Leverage that for the wellbeing of your spouse. And so he is so good at probably information and all those things will become intrigued about who she is and leverage that toward her.
Kevin Thompson [00:23:08]:
She is so good about serving everybody. Great. Let's make sure that we're also serving him in the midst of that process. Now let's look at what secure attachment would look like here. So anxious attachment is. She's serving, hoping that he will just notice. Right. Avoidant attachment is I'm stepping out, hoping everything will just.
Kevin Thompson [00:23:23]:
She won't bring anything up. Secure attachment now will look like she learns that she can ask for help. Yes. To her, that's defeat.
Blaine Neufeld [00:23:32]:
Yeah.
Kevin Thompson [00:23:33]:
Weakness for a two.
Blaine Neufeld [00:23:34]:
Failure. Weakness.
Kevin Thompson [00:23:35]:
I love how nine's like, why so for a two who literally. I get relationship by serving others.
Adrienne Neufeld [00:23:44]:
If you ask, then there's no relationship.
Kevin Thompson [00:23:45]:
Well, the idea. Now I'm indebted to you.
Blaine Neufeld [00:23:49]:
I gotta double down my serving to you.
Adrienne Neufeld [00:23:51]:
Oh, it makes more work for me.
Blaine Neufeld [00:23:52]:
Oh, my gosh.
Kevin Thompson [00:23:53]:
It could make more work for me. And I've lost my leverage over you to make sure that we're in relationship. I remember. I think my grandmother was a 2. One of the hardest working women I've ever met in my entire life. Loved her to death, but I won't forget she has cancer. She's on her deathbed. Right.
Kevin Thompson [00:24:10]:
We're in the hospital. It's her 90th birthday. And it just so happens that everybody else kind of left and it was just me and my mamaw. Right. Mamaw and mamaw. That's an Arkansas thing, isn't it? And so in that moment, she looks up to me and she goes, kevin, this is so hard. Which was unusual for her to kind of say. And so I became.
Kevin Thompson [00:24:27]:
I was trying to pastor her, and I'm like, oh, my goodness, I can't imagine. She always thought she was going to live to be 100. And I can't imagine the pain of the cancer dying, of leaving your family. Literally. I felt like I was five again as she just kind of slapped away my idea, metaphorically. And she's like, pain is nothing. Death is nothing. It's laying here and watching all these people serve me.
Kevin Thompson [00:24:54]:
That's what she couldn't take. That was far more painful to her than the pain of the cancer and the impending death she knew she was about to experience. I think she was a two. And that idea of being served. And so the idea of asking for help. So a growth edge now for her is to intentionally begin to ask for help of what's going and notice what this is going to do. Not only is it going to make him aware of the needs that are there, as he becomes aware of one thing, it gives him a better chance of being aware of something else that he does. She doesn't even have to ask.
Kevin Thompson [00:25:26]:
Now he starts to see it. Because one of the problems here is he doesn't see it. Now, I'm not excusing his behavior.
Blaine Neufeld [00:25:31]:
He.
Kevin Thompson [00:25:32]:
He needs to see it, but he doesn't yet. So how can we help him see it? Asking would be one aspect of it.
Blaine Neufeld [00:25:36]:
He will be so good at fixing, not fixing, helping her needs, because that's what he does. I can. I can see this. And here's the scary part. If she is unhealthy and the kids move out of the house and she has less things to serve, that will be a very difficult season. So therefore, if you can't figure out that secure attachment before those big hurdles come, you'll be grabbing at things and your identity will be in the serving. It's just like that doubles down the importance of finding a secure attachment.
Kevin Thompson [00:26:10]:
If there are kids, all those things, if they go down this unhealthy road and never deal with it, where this is going to end up is the kids are teenagers now. They have their driver's license. They're gone out of the house. She's going to go find a million different things to do, and she's serving the kids. She's on the pta, she's working, she's doing all these things. Kids graduate. She loses that whole identity of what it's like to be able to serve your kids now in this moment, and she's not going to know who she is and they're going to have no connection and he's not going to know how to deal with it. And they're just going to live these parallel lives and they either go that way for the rest of their lives or eventually somebody comes along who pays attention to her and she's drawn to that.
Adrienne Neufeld [00:26:50]:
Another person she can serve.
Kevin Thompson [00:26:52]:
Another person that she can serve. That's exactly right now. So her growth edge, her secure attachment, she'll learn to depend upon others to lean in, to ask for some help. His secure attachment, I think will allow him to stay in when he's tempted to rock out. And he'll begin to notice, actually, oh, you know what I'm doing. Avoidant attachment oftentimes will leverage work as a form of avoidance for sure, because culture accepts it and appreciates it. Oh, so workaholics many times have an avoidant attachment.
Blaine Neufeld [00:27:22]:
Yes.
Kevin Thompson [00:27:22]:
So he needs to start recognizing whenever I'm tempted to go check my email, I need to ask how can I serve my family? Whenever he's at home and think about the radical difference that would make that as he stands up to go leave the room, he instead goes over and picks up her plate. Right. He goes and takes the kid and puts them to bed or they do bath time or whatever. And just that little switch of recognition of, oh, here's what I'm tempted to do. And so avoidant attachment has to learn to lean in when they're actually want to rock out.
Blaine Neufeld [00:27:52]:
But even in that if he just starts swooping in and doing her thing, her things, is that proper language. The more he does of her without being on the same page, she will start to think, I'm not needed. What's going on here? He doesn't trust like this is a group effort where it's like he has to see her and talk to her and she has to be okay with telling her, him, I need help. Here, here, here. This is where I get depleted. I will go and do that. I will go and do that. And I mean, yeah, it's so fascinating.
Kevin Thompson [00:28:22]:
Because now one thing that she'll have to do is when he starts working, she'll have to make sure she doesn't try to tell him how to do everything because that will, that will give her still the sense of power and control. And it will, it will tempt him then to just step out and leave. You have to let him do it the way he's going to do it within reason that's been negotiated of how we do it as a house. But I could see this. He wants to now take this courageous step. He hears this, I'm going to go take this step. I'm going to do it. She's uncomfortable with it.
Kevin Thompson [00:28:51]:
She doesn't like to be served. And so the first time he does something, she's going to correct him or tell him, no, that doesn't need to be done. You need to be doing this. And in that moment, you just told him, stop doing it.
Blaine Neufeld [00:29:00]:
Stop doing it.
Kevin Thompson [00:29:00]:
And that's the last thing she actually wants. And so it shows how her unhealthy behavior could actually lead to the very outcome she wants to avoid if she's not very careful. So, all right, let's talk about a couple of gross suggestions for them of how they can make this better and then even a tool that maybe they can learn of how to make this take place. So again, we need to replace silence with clear request that she can ask, hey, can you do this? Will you do this for me? He needs to now begin to brainstorm, find ways, and even ask her. Look, here's the downside, Especially with a lot of guys. If you had a mom who really took care of you in a lot of ways, you're not aware of what it takes to run a house, Especially if you never lived on your own, anything like that, you're not even aware it's unfair. But that's the ignorance in which you live. And so if the wife can come along and help him begin to see with the goal of, he's going to own this.
Kevin Thompson [00:29:51]:
This isn't how it's going to forever be. But, I mean, this is my own experience. If I'm wrong, man, write in and tell me I'm wrong. I did tell Jenny at one point, look, I don't see what you see. Is there any way you could start helping me see what you see? So make me a list. Make whatever it is it takes.
Adrienne Neufeld [00:30:05]:
Humility.
Kevin Thompson [00:30:06]:
And then we're not going to forever be doing lists. We don't even do lists anymore. But in the first decade of marriage, on a Saturday, she'd write down all these things. I'm like, oh, my. I wouldn't even have thought of half of these.
Blaine Neufeld [00:30:17]:
I'll add a simple one. This morning, I'm getting ready, and I'm like, would it be helpful if I brought the kids to school? I asked that question. Oh, yeah, like, it's just. She could have been like, no, no, no, I got it. Which she said many times, but I was like, I wonder how I could help. She seems stressed. Could I take the kids if that. Would that be help? Yeah.
Blaine Neufeld [00:30:35]:
Oh, my gosh. And then. Right. Would that be a good example of.
Kevin Thompson [00:30:38]:
A simple task where Adrienne. It took 30 minutes and 42 seconds. So whenever you. Before you got here earlier, Adrienne and I were talking, and she said you took the kids to school beforehand. And we were wondering how long into.
Adrienne Neufeld [00:30:50]:
The episode what it take for you.
Blaine Neufeld [00:30:51]:
To get a gold standard.
Kevin Thompson [00:30:54]:
Before you brought it up.
Blaine Neufeld [00:30:55]:
We weren't gon it up looking for a win.
Kevin Thompson [00:30:57]:
You brought it up.
Blaine Neufeld [00:31:00]:
Well done. You didn't talk about.
Kevin Thompson [00:31:01]:
No, we didn't. We're totally kidding. We talked about it, but we didn't.
Adrienne Neufeld [00:31:04]:
No, but that's a good point. Because my mental load the night before felt big. And in the morning, I was kind of like trying to get every lunches made everything done. And then you suggested. I was like, oh, okay. Like, gives me an extra 25 minutes or whatever.
Blaine Neufeld [00:31:20]:
And it was funny how the fight last night just. It was so fast.
Adrienne Neufeld [00:31:24]:
It wasn't even a fight.
Blaine Neufeld [00:31:25]:
No.
Adrienne Neufeld [00:31:26]:
But I guess we were both, like, snapped a little.
Kevin Thompson [00:31:28]:
Yeah.
Blaine Neufeld [00:31:29]:
It's like, how don't you know what's coming tomorrow? And. And then I noticed in myself, I'm like telling my kid, you unbuckle yourself. Like, what?
Kevin Thompson [00:31:37]:
Oh, yeah. We actually.
Adrienne Neufeld [00:31:38]:
We took it out on the kids. That's what happened.
Kevin Thompson [00:31:40]:
We both.
Adrienne Neufeld [00:31:41]:
We were like, fine. And all of a sudden, you realized our morning. We were like, we're done. Everybody has a car. We don't care. Get inside.
Kevin Thompson [00:31:48]:
And what a great way to go to school. They're shell shocked. Like, what just happened?
Blaine Neufeld [00:31:52]:
What just happened? We had a great night.
Kevin Thompson [00:31:54]:
Doo, doo, doo, doo, doo, doo.
Blaine Neufeld [00:31:55]:
And then it was snap. You know, just because we were uncomfortable. Only to create anxious attachment, I'm sure, in our children, probably because of that unpredictability.
Kevin Thompson [00:32:03]:
But that's all right.
Adrienne Neufeld [00:32:04]:
They were okay in the morning.
Kevin Thompson [00:32:05]:
Remember what the experts say is that in healthy, secure relationships, we only get it right 50% of the time.
Blaine Neufeld [00:32:11]:
Okay.
Kevin Thompson [00:32:11]:
So we're going to make mistakes. No doubt. So a couple things they can do. Clear request. They can begin to start naming their energy levels.
Blaine Neufeld [00:32:19]:
That's good.
Kevin Thompson [00:32:20]:
And what that's gonna do is really, it's gonna help her a lot. Begin to figure out, am I depleted? Am I not depleted? Even an idea of. Hey, on a scale of 1 to 10, right. 10. You have more energy than you've ever had in your entire life. One you're dead. Where are you right now? That's a good way to start getting that. It's a good thing to do with kids, too, to help them begin to recognize their own emotions.
Blaine Neufeld [00:32:40]:
That's a good one.
Kevin Thompson [00:32:41]:
And then they need to. She specifically but needs to stop the scorekeeping. And we just need to sit down and have a very practical conversation, which he should be great at. Of who's in charge of what? Yeah, who does what? And let's begin to break it down. And this is one of the things I talk about in Friends, Partners and Lovers is there are three conversations you should have on annual vacation. And one of the conversations is this. Has the workload gotten uneven toward one of us? And let's include in that the mental load. And so let's just look at.
Kevin Thompson [00:33:12]:
In this. Because seasons change, jobs change, the age of kids, who's going where, what Homework, expectations, all those things. Jenny and I. Adrienne and I were talking before. Where were you? No, Adrienne and I were talking before that. When the kids. When my kids were little, there was a little season where they both went to the same school. So I took both of them, but it was always Jenny would take one and I would take the other, and it would switch based on what year it was, just based on how schedule came, which is great because I got one on one time and Jenna got one on one time with both of them.
Kevin Thompson [00:33:45]:
But it just shows what works today won't necessarily work tomorrow. You have to have those conversations. And then I want to talk about just a very simple concept here that I think would be useful for her, and that is if she could begin to learn to make I statements. So think about this. She's bonding. So she loves to serve other people outward. So she's always looking at the needs that are out there. She doesn't know the I at all.
Kevin Thompson [00:34:12]:
He knows himself. He's inward focused. He needs to start learning. How can I look at her?
Blaine Neufeld [00:34:17]:
We actually we we statements.
Kevin Thompson [00:34:19]:
That's a great concept. But she needs to look at, well, I'm gonna write my own book.
Adrienne Neufeld [00:34:25]:
The we statement.
Kevin Thompson [00:34:28]:
So how would she learn to begin to say, here's how I feel, here's what I think? She doesn't think in those terms. That would be a powerful thing. And then, yes, for him to come in and begin to join that. And so basically, in the end, she needs to learn that asking is actually an act of intimacy. And he needs to learn that noticing is an act of service. And if they both do that, they can change the odds.
Blaine Neufeld [00:34:50]:
They sure can. Kevin.
Kevin Thompson [00:34:51]:
We'll see you next time.