Kevin Thompson [00:00:00]:
Hello, everyone. Welcome back to Change the Odds podcast, where marriage and family were never meant to be a game of chance.
Kevin Thompson [00:00:07]:
There we go. Adrienne's got it. Blaine. Blaine has no idea, but Adrienne has it down. That's why I got her tagline.
Blaine Neufeld [00:00:12]:
That's a team. We're a team.
Kevin Thompson [00:00:14]:
How are we, everybody? Oh, good.
Blaine Neufeld [00:00:16]:
We are good. Really good. Really good. Great. Great week.
Kevin Thompson [00:00:18]:
Happy morning.
Blaine Neufeld [00:00:19]:
Yeah. Yeah.
Kevin Thompson [00:00:20]:
It was a couple cheers for one of our kids, but school dropped for it.
Kevin Thompson [00:00:25]:
Yep, that's part of it. Yeah. I just got the text that Jenny's car needs a new transmission. Ten grand Life.
Blaine Neufeld [00:00:33]:
It is what it is.
Kevin Thompson [00:00:34]:
We're not getting a new transmission, I guarantee you that. I called Jenny. I said, what kind of car do you want?
Blaine Neufeld [00:00:39]:
Yeah.
Kevin Thompson [00:00:39]:
Okay, here we go.
Blaine Neufeld [00:00:40]:
So that's your fix.
Kevin Thompson [00:00:41]:
Let's talk about money today. Let's talk about the importance of saving.
Blaine Neufeld [00:00:45]:
Yes, yes, the importance of saving. Don't we know it.
Kevin Thompson [00:00:48]:
What is our topic today?
Blaine Neufeld [00:00:50]:
The topic today is speaking the truth.
Kevin Thompson [00:00:55]:
In love in marriage.
Blaine Neufeld [00:00:56]:
Yes. Yes.
Kevin Thompson [00:00:57]:
There we go.
Blaine Neufeld [00:00:58]:
Yes. And we got the insider information because, Kevin, great job on Sunday.
Kevin Thompson [00:01:03]:
Well, thank you.
Blaine Neufeld [00:01:03]:
Great job.
Kevin Thompson [00:01:04]:
That's where we just need to take this whole podcast. From now on, don't worry about cars. So y' all listened? Y' all listened on Sunday?
Kevin Thompson [00:01:10]:
We did.
Blaine Neufeld [00:01:10]:
Yeah, we did. Intently.
Kevin Thompson [00:01:11]:
So as we're recording this, the previous Sunday, spoke out of Ephesians, chapter 4, verse number 15, where it talks about speaking the truth in love is actually what leads to maturity. Maturity then leads to unity. And obviously, there's a very clear marriage concept whenever it comes to that. I mean, one thing I said, even in the introduction, is that divorce is the byproduct of immaturity. It could be immaturity between an individual, immaturity between both of them, or just the relationship itself is immature. And yet, whenever we grow up, whenever we are mature, that leads to unity, which is so couples that succeed find that amount of maturity. So the question becomes, how do you become mature? And this is the process by which we do that.
Blaine Neufeld [00:01:53]:
For me, it's cool because I think I kept saying, oh, divorce comes from, like, selfishness. And that's almost like a negative way of looking at it, but it comes from immaturity. And when you're immature, there's ability to become mature. Right. And I forget how you worded it, but it was something of how that is a choice that. That we make to become and attempt it. We'll always grow old. There's no doubt about it.
Blaine Neufeld [00:02:15]:
Am I getting it now?
Kevin Thompson [00:02:15]:
Yeah, you're almost there. I like it. I like it.
Blaine Neufeld [00:02:18]:
It's not guaranteed that you're going to mature.
Kevin Thompson [00:02:20]:
That's exactly right. Growing old is automatic. Growing up is intentional.
Blaine Neufeld [00:02:24]:
There it is.
Kevin Thompson [00:02:25]:
Yes, that's exactly right. So, I mean, it goes back to our big word from friends, partners, and lovers, this importance of intentionality in everything that we do. That includes the topic of maturity and how do we become mature. This is the process where we learn in a proper way to speak truth in love. And so what does that look like? And so the very first thing that we talked about on the weekend, the very first thing we need to recognize now is we tend to feel torn that truth is on one side, love is on the other. Right. And so which is it? Which do you want right now? I mean, I can literally hear Jenny say this. Do you want to be truthful, or do you want me to be loving? Right.
Kevin Thompson [00:03:07]:
So we feel this tension. But it's interesting, Jesus never felt that tension. It literally is two sides of one coin. So one thing we said over the weekend, I think it's important for us to recognize now is that truth without love is a weapon. This is how you hurt people. This is how you destroy people, that you decouple these two essential elements. And now we're just pounding the truth out there. But then you have the idea that love without truth is a lie.
Kevin Thompson [00:03:35]:
And so without truth, there's no substance to love. So love without truth is lust. Many times we talked about how it can be kindness kind of masquerading, cowardice masquerading as kindness. But instead, whenever we wed these two things together, there's a magic that's in them that I just think we greatly miss within the role of marriage. And if we can learn to grow in these areas, it will have an impactful future for us.
Blaine Neufeld [00:04:05]:
And we get excited because we're sitting up there and listening, and we're like, blaine, I know that I'm all love. I have a hard time sometimes speaking the truth, whereas you have no problem saying it for what it is, the truth of it. And you would feel maybe that you lack the empathy or that we're noticing this little, you know, maturity process right here in real time. Because I think I'm one that I want everyone to be happy. I want everyone to feel good and be used and all the good things, but to be, like, direct with what I actually want them to do is scary for me. Right? So then together we're this good weapon. Because she'll hit me on the table. No, tell Them how it is or whatever it is.
Blaine Neufeld [00:04:51]:
Like, even last night in our. In our group that we're having, I'm trying to, like, elevate some people to lead, but I'm just feeling emote to making sure that they want to lead and I don't want to offend them, but at the same time, I know it's going to be the best for them and our group and us. And I'm like, I'm contemplating this. And she goes, it's no big deal. Just tell them, like, they're on your team. Like, let's go. Right.
Kevin Thompson [00:05:11]:
It's really. That's an interesting. And we'll talk more about this later, because personality plays a huge aspect of this. First of all, can you all. And if you don't know it, don't. I'm not going to have my feelings here, but remind me your attachment styles.
Blaine Neufeld [00:05:22]:
Do you remember the attachment styles?
Kevin Thompson [00:05:25]:
Secure, anxious, avoidant.
Blaine Neufeld [00:05:27]:
I would be.
Kevin Thompson [00:05:28]:
I don't remember. Okay.
Kevin Thompson [00:05:30]:
I think I'm secure, avoidant.
Kevin Thompson [00:05:32]:
Okay. We can run a test later.
Blaine Neufeld [00:05:33]:
I'd be secure, attached, Anxious, anxious.
Kevin Thompson [00:05:36]:
Secure, Anxious. Attached is the big umbrella word. Because here's what surprises me. Just off the top is as an enneagram 8, you would think truth would come very easy to you and that you wouldn't. Love would be a little bit harder. Now if you lean toward A Wing 7. 8. Wing 7.
Kevin Thompson [00:05:54]:
That begins to make sense. You kind of want everybody to be happy and you don't want to deal with the hardship. You would think with an enneagram9 now that you would waffle back and forth between, oh, there's times which you speak abundant truth, and people would think, oh, you lack love. And then there would be other times in which you would de. Center your opinion and you're actually holding back what your opinion actually is. And I wonder if it's just with Blaine that you have the ability to speak truth so easily because you have created this relationship of trust that's there.
Blaine Neufeld [00:06:27]:
Safety.
Kevin Thompson [00:06:28]:
Yeah.
Blaine Neufeld [00:06:28]:
For her to have safety. Right. And you can speak your mind and know that it's not going to. Yeah. Go ahead.
Kevin Thompson [00:06:34]:
Yeah. Because a lot of things I say to you, I wouldn't actually say to the people.
Kevin Thompson [00:06:39]:
Oh, yeah, right. Here's what you should do.
Blaine Neufeld [00:06:40]:
Yeah.
Kevin Thompson [00:06:41]:
Yeah.
Kevin Thompson [00:06:41]:
I'm like, well, that's dumb. They just need to do this. But I would never go up to them and probably say it like that.
Kevin Thompson [00:06:48]:
So that's that dyadic viewpoint that you and I both share. We're so keenly aware of other people and ourselves, that causes us to vacillate between the two. So sometimes we can come across as shockingly truthful people, almost prophetic in a way that we will boldly speak truth where nobody else will, which causes people to assume that we're always speaking truth and we're not. Cause there's this whole other time where we're holding back all of our opinions because we don't want to hurt feelings. How's that going to cause the relationship? We don't want the. That kind of frustration that's going on there. And then even for you, on top of that being a 9, where agency is so central, that would lean you more toward truth at times, but then your dyadic view is gonna hold you back at other times.
Kevin Thompson [00:07:29]:
Very confusing.
Kevin Thompson [00:07:29]:
Yeah, yeah. No, it would.
Kevin Thompson [00:07:30]:
My own brain.
Kevin Thompson [00:07:31]:
It would create a great tension within that.
Kevin Thompson [00:07:34]:
And then I lack heart.
Blaine Neufeld [00:07:36]:
Empathy.
Kevin Thompson [00:07:36]:
Empathy, but just for certain things.
Blaine Neufeld [00:07:39]:
Scenarios.
Kevin Thompson [00:07:40]:
Yeah. So then it's like, yeah, I don't know.
Kevin Thompson [00:07:42]:
Do you lack it or do you fail to express it?
Kevin Thompson [00:07:44]:
Actually, yes.
Kevin Thompson [00:07:45]:
Okay. Yeah.
Kevin Thompson [00:07:46]:
Yeah. I've built up some kind of wall.
Kevin Thompson [00:07:49]:
Yeah, yeah. So, yeah. In all likelihood, some story was written in your upbringing that that kind of vulnerability is frowned upon in this place, and so you've learned to hold it back. So it's there. It's very present. I find you to be a very compassionate person, but it's going to be behind a wall.
Kevin Thompson [00:08:06]:
Yes.
Kevin Thompson [00:08:07]:
And so if you're close to friends, they're going to see you as extremely empathetic because you're comfortable enough. In those cases, in a room full of strangers, they might feel a little bit more reserved because they haven't deserved to break through that wall.
Blaine Neufeld [00:08:23]:
One of the most attractive moments of my life to Adrienne was we were marriage counseling someone and talking. I'm here trying to make it all okay. And she looks her dead in the eyes and says, this is what you need to do. This is who you are. And it just, like, spoke life over them. And I'm like, whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa. You can't. Like, well, you're going to break her.
Blaine Neufeld [00:08:41]:
And then this woman's just like, yep, I need to do that. And it was the truth that she was willing to say because she was tired of the nonsense.
Kevin Thompson [00:08:49]:
Yeah, Yeah, I do get tired of the nonsense.
Kevin Thompson [00:08:51]:
Yes.
Kevin Thompson [00:08:52]:
I cannot handle.
Blaine Neufeld [00:08:53]:
Yeah, you do too, don't you?
Kevin Thompson [00:08:54]:
No, I do. I do. It's just. I run at that moment.
Blaine Neufeld [00:08:58]:
But. But I think it's important when you're in that same and Holy spirit led place because it was out of love that she spoke the truth and it was out of belief.
Kevin Thompson [00:09:06]:
No idea what you're talking about.
Blaine Neufeld [00:09:07]:
Oh, I can tell you off camera exactly what it was.
Kevin Thompson [00:09:10]:
Remember when we were sitting down with Jenny and Kevin? Yeah.
Kevin Thompson [00:09:13]:
We were at their house for dinner. Kevin went to the couch.
Kevin Thompson [00:09:16]:
I think that's a great example between the two of you about how you lean one way and the other and all about, we gotta grow in and how do we get better individually. But it shows how as a team together, you can have a wholeness that you can't have on your own.
Blaine Neufeld [00:09:30]:
So how do we tell the truth? How do we get to that spot where we start telling the truth? And we know it's important in marriage because we're feeling it. We understand that it's growing our trust in each other. It's created a safer spot. I told you, it's most attractive ever been. There's intimacy, there's all these great things. So it's clearly important in marriage. But how do we get there?
Kevin Thompson [00:09:49]:
And even think about how truth now impacts all three major roles? So friendship is built on trust. Partnership built on respect. Intimacy built on vulnerability. The truth now builds trust. Without the truth, you can't have trust. And yet, as the more truthful you get, the more you can begin to see that there is a trust that's there. If somebody uses the truth to help you, not to wound you, you begin to trust them. We probably all have people in our lives that we know we can go to.
Kevin Thompson [00:10:18]:
They're going to be honest with us. So I get done on a Sunday morning, everybody's like, oh, that's so great, whatever. And I can go to somebody and say, hey, what do you think? Hey, this part was kind of weak. This part would. All right, I know they're gonna tell me the truth, which means whenever they compliment me, it means so much more. So truth now builds trust, and trust is necessary for truth to exist. So that's how friendship begins to exist. The thing about friends is you trust them because they tell you the truth.
Kevin Thompson [00:10:49]:
They can tell you a truth that nobody else can tell you because you know it's for their good intention. But then the idea of partnership. Imagine being in a business partnership with somebody. You can't. It's not going to tell you the truth. It's going to lie to you. It's going to manipulate the numbers in some way, tell you they're doing one thing when they're really not. It erodes respect.
Kevin Thompson [00:11:05]:
So truth is a key element of respect. And then Trust plus respect equals vulnerability. What is vulnerability? It is now sharing the truth. It's kind of hidden in some ways. And so I think first and foremost to see how it is one of these best bedrock, foundational elements of every aspect of our relationship. Now, this has to take priority within the relationship of what we're doing. How do we do that? Well, in part, what it means is we're going to shy away from the opposite. We're going to recognize that lies erode, they corrode every aspect of who we are.
Kevin Thompson [00:11:43]:
And so right from the very beginning, one of our family values for Jenny and I, we stole it from my elves. We avoid the two Ls, we are not lazy, and we do not lie. I tell my kids all the time, look, our relationship is built primarily on one thing. The ability now to tell each other the truth, to trust each other. And I would far rather you come to me and say, dad, I disobeyed you. I did this. Now here are the consequences. You do that, I actually trust you.
Blaine Neufeld [00:12:10]:
Right.
Kevin Thompson [00:12:11]:
I actually lean in. And you're probably not even going to get in real trouble. We're going to go deal with the issue. But, man, the moment you lie to me, the moment you don't tell me the truth, then you're losing freedom, you're losing responsibility. If that is true for our kids, how much more true is it with each other?
Blaine Neufeld [00:12:30]:
That is so good.
Kevin Thompson [00:12:31]:
But what if you have a partner or a spouse? Hypothetical, Very hypothetical. And not even our situation. But I'm just thinking for other people where they feel like they're other half or even a friend can't handle the truth. Like they're too fragile or they're too emotional and they would just. It would destroy them.
Kevin Thompson [00:12:52]:
Yeah.
Kevin Thompson [00:12:53]:
How do you do that?
Kevin Thompson [00:12:55]:
Yeah, well, I think. I think to navigate that wisely, to recognize what's going on. But here's. Here's what is often happening there. Often it's not that the other person can't handle the truth. It's that we struggle with how they react to it.
Kevin Thompson [00:13:09]:
Right?
Kevin Thompson [00:13:10]:
So we're actually projecting upon them an insecurity within us. I remember years ago, years ago, my sister got breast cancer. She's doing great now, but my sister got breast cancer. And there was all this discussion about how our grandparents were living, of who's going to tell the grandparents. Like, I mean, my sister, their second favorite grandchild, and all these things. And I'm like, I'll go tell them. I have no problem going to tell them. These people are 90 years old.
Kevin Thompson [00:13:38]:
Do you know how much hardship they've been through in their entire lives? They're going to encourage me. Right. But the fear was, oh, at their age, I don't know if they can handle it.
Blaine Neufeld [00:13:48]:
Wow. Yeah.
Kevin Thompson [00:13:49]:
Bet you they can. And so this idea that they can't handle the truth, I think oftentimes is grossly overplayed. What really is going on is we can't handle the discomfort of how they might respond to it.
Kevin Thompson [00:14:03]:
That's a really good point.
Kevin Thompson [00:14:04]:
And then beyond that, even if they do struggle a little bit, well, how are they going to grow in that? How are they going to grow if we never tell them the truth? It actually is going to make them worse. You can use the golf example, Blaine. You got a guy that hits a big slice. What does he do? He keeps on moving farther and farther to the left. What does that do? It creates a worse slice. And so how do you correct that? A lot of times you actually aim right, and then your body will correct. Well, if you have somebody who can't handle the truth, we need to tell them the truth so they can begin to learn to handle this. Because you cannot be a human being now if you can't proper this in.
Kevin Thompson [00:14:36]:
A proper way, coddling them. And they never grow. Okay, so, like, basic question, do I look good in this dress? Your wife asks you what? If you actually think it looks horrible, you say that.
Kevin Thompson [00:14:47]:
Yeah. Wait, what? Kevin.
Kevin Thompson [00:14:50]:
Kevin.
Blaine Neufeld [00:14:53]:
Next time on Change the Odds.
Kevin Thompson [00:14:55]:
As a friend. Yes, I've grown. I've. I used to be like, oh, I love it. Like, you know, if girls ask, friends ask. But now I want to be like, I actually hate it. And maybe, maybe I could do it with more love. But it's like, I think you could do better.
Kevin Thompson [00:15:07]:
Yeah.
Kevin Thompson [00:15:08]:
You know, but that might be totally different.
Kevin Thompson [00:15:11]:
It is a great question. Is there ever a time to lie? I don't know if y'. All. If y' all remember, but the old comedian, he's. He's unfortunately gone now. Ralphie May, I don't know if you remember Ralphie Mae. I'm not in any way encouraging you to listen to it, but he's actually from Arkansas. Oh, no.
Kevin Thompson [00:15:27]:
Ralphie May from Arkansas, just right down the road from where I grew up. And he talks about. And obviously he's not a Christian, has a different life perspective than what I have. He says, all healthy relationships are built on lies, Lies, lies, lies, lies. Well constructed lies. You cannot have a healthy relationship if you tell the truth. And so if your girl walks in and says, do I look Fat in this lie. Right.
Kevin Thompson [00:15:48]:
Okay, I get what he's saying, and it's a joke, in part. He also had multiple marriages that didn't work out. There's a reason for that. So, no, we do not lie. We do not lie. However, we do not have to be harsh in the things that we say, and we can be wise and discerning in how we say that. So let's say Jenny, hypothetically, were to walk into something, and she were to say, do I look good in this? And let's say it's not my favorite thing ever. I might say I actually prefer the other dress.
Kevin Thompson [00:16:22]:
Okay. You're not coming in with this brutalness. Right? Here's what I think is very important for us to recognize. We want to be able to say hard things. We never want to say harsh things. There's a difference between those two things. Hard things is I'm willing to be vulnerable to experience a little bit of the discomfort now for your benefit. Harsh things are.
Kevin Thompson [00:16:46]:
I actually can't take a conversation about this, so I'm gonna state it as painfully as possible in hopes of wounding you to such an extent that you cannot respond as a way to protect myself.
Blaine Neufeld [00:16:58]:
So why would Adrienne want to say I hate that? Like, that's a pretty harsh way of saying. I don't think she'd ever say it.
Kevin Thompson [00:17:03]:
But, like, she wouldn't.
Kevin Thompson [00:17:04]:
I would. I said your short.
Blaine Neufeld [00:17:06]:
Well, no.
Kevin Thompson [00:17:07]:
What did you say? You can't.
Kevin Thompson [00:17:08]:
I said, your shorts are bothering me to my core or something like that.
Blaine Neufeld [00:17:14]:
And I said, like, they're irritating me.
Kevin Thompson [00:17:16]:
Like, insanely a lot.
Kevin Thompson [00:17:18]:
Did it hurt you?
Blaine Neufeld [00:17:19]:
Not at all.
Kevin Thompson [00:17:19]:
And then I. I fixed.
Kevin Thompson [00:17:20]:
That's the key. That's the key.
Blaine Neufeld [00:17:22]:
And you know what else? Can I just share something about that?
Kevin Thompson [00:17:24]:
He is like iron nothing.
Blaine Neufeld [00:17:25]:
No, he's not an iron. He cries all the time. I don't know why I'm talking to third person.
Kevin Thompson [00:17:31]:
Yeah, I don't like it.
Blaine Neufeld [00:17:33]:
We'll stop. Blame will stop. So I'm chatting to a guy. This is nonsense. This is on fantasy football. And. And he texts me out of the blue, and he goes, I'm mad at you. And I was like.
Blaine Neufeld [00:17:44]:
I felt so comforted by that. I now know where he's at. I know he's mad at me. We call it pick up the phone.
Kevin Thompson [00:17:51]:
That would. That I wouldn't have that reaction.
Blaine Neufeld [00:17:52]:
I know. I'm just processing here because it's like. It's interesting how you. How did it make me feel better? I'm now aware of my shorts. I'M good with it. I'm now aware that you're mad at me. Hey, why are you mad at me? I love going into that spot because I'm not scared of where I can't wait to get on the other side of that. To know that there's, like, brutal honesty.
Blaine Neufeld [00:18:13]:
Love it.
Kevin Thompson [00:18:14]:
Yeah.
Blaine Neufeld [00:18:14]:
I couldn't wait. She would die.
Kevin Thompson [00:18:16]:
No, I hate, like, my whole nervous system would, like, shut down and I would be like, oh, my gosh.
Blaine Neufeld [00:18:21]:
So she walks into a room and is like, how does this look? Babe, I love you so much. Oh, you look so good. I mean, what. How do you feel? I'm not sure.
Kevin Thompson [00:18:28]:
Yeah, go for it.
Blaine Neufeld [00:18:29]:
Like, is that okay?
Kevin Thompson [00:18:30]:
Yeah. You know what I mean?
Kevin Thompson [00:18:31]:
Well, you didn't answer the question.
Blaine Neufeld [00:18:32]:
I don't think I need to answer the question because I already trying to figure out what is the question?
Kevin Thompson [00:18:35]:
What is the question? No, I think that's an important, important aspect. What is? And again, we do not lie. However, we don't have to just go immediately with harshness of what's going on or even what the question that is actually being asked at that moment. And instead, let's get to the heart of what is actually taking place. But I find it interesting. Here's my guess, Adrienne. My guess is you're actually good when the confrontation, you're in the middle of it. In other words, let's say you're forced into a hard conversation.
Kevin Thompson [00:19:09]:
My guess is you're really good at that. It's the lead up that you don't want any part of me. I'm that way from the standpoint of if we're in a difficult conversation, I'm actually very good at that. I'm thoughtful, I'm kind, I'm reflective. I'm not defensive.
Kevin Thompson [00:19:22]:
Yes.
Kevin Thompson [00:19:23]:
But if you text me, I'm mad at you without telling me. What about spiraling or even the text of, hey, can we talk tomorrow? No, no, right now. No, right now or never. Tell me what? Because the story I'm writing in my brain is so much worse than anything that's gonna possibly be. We had. Hey, a couple of our friends invited me to dinner, and they're also my bosses. And hey, hey, let's go to dinner Saturday night. And I'm like, oh, my goodness, what have I done? And so this whole service, right, I'm like, listening, thinking, what am I? Am I'm about to get fired? Am I about to get promoted? Like, what in the world? So we go to dinner and nothing.
Kevin Thompson [00:20:02]:
I'm like, well, as soon as we Order. Well, we order. Nothing happens. Well, as soon as the appetizers come, the appetizers come. So basically we're at the very end and they're finally. They're paying the check. They're my boss. I'm not paying.
Kevin Thompson [00:20:12]:
They're paying for the bill. And I'm like, so what's this about? What is this? And they're like, oh, we just want to hang out.
Kevin Thompson [00:20:19]:
Oh, could have told me that earlier.
Kevin Thompson [00:20:22]:
Well, I can relax now and hang out. Y' all want to stay for a couple more hours?
Kevin Thompson [00:20:25]:
Yeah, yeah.
Kevin Thompson [00:20:25]:
But. But so we have this thought, right, of what's going on. So I totally get the idea of that fear that is there. And there's nothing wrong with that. Part of that is just our own background. And where maybe we had to guess in our family. Maybe in our family, it was really spoken about what was unhappy. So we had to read the room, which makes us very good at doing that.
Kevin Thompson [00:20:45]:
Except we can overread into what's taking place. But whenever it's okay to have that. My issue is, once the conversation is happening now, can we stay in it enough? And what I love here is y' all are creating relationship to change some of these pathways that you've had of old, and then that can begin to ripple out to your friends, to your kids, to other people. And then what does that look like? To speak. Speak truth in the midst of every relationship.
Blaine Neufeld [00:21:11]:
Yeah, right.
Kevin Thompson [00:21:12]:
And even just an example, like, with your kids, like, mom, look at this thing I made you. And, like, I don't want to lie, but I also, like, oh, cool. Like, I want, but I don't want to.
Blaine Neufeld [00:21:25]:
Like, you're sounding terrible.
Kevin Thompson [00:21:26]:
I know.
Kevin Thompson [00:21:27]:
I'm a horrible human.
Kevin Thompson [00:21:28]:
No, you're not.
Blaine Neufeld [00:21:28]:
No, you're not.
Kevin Thompson [00:21:31]:
But do I, Like, I want to foster their creativity. I don't want to, like, be the mom who said you were too loud and they never speak again. You know, like, find the good.
Kevin Thompson [00:21:40]:
But yet she does this. Mom, I brought this for you. All right? In the long run, what they brought does not matter.
Kevin Thompson [00:21:48]:
It's the thought.
Kevin Thompson [00:21:48]:
What is it you want to speak life into?
Kevin Thompson [00:21:50]:
Yeah.
Kevin Thompson [00:21:50]:
And so you do not have to just say, I hate this, or that's. You know, that actually looks like a five year old did it. Well, Mom, I'm four. I'm actually brilliant at what's going on. You don't have to. Let's get to the heart of what is actually going on. And where can I speak life and so speak truth into the part that's gonna Add life into what saved me.
Kevin Thompson [00:22:12]:
You were so thoughtful to think of me.
Kevin Thompson [00:22:14]:
Thoughtful, creative. The initiative that they actually showed, the time that they took, that they could have been fixated, focused on themselves. I wish your dad were more like this, you know? Yeah, yeah.
Blaine Neufeld [00:22:23]:
But she does this like she, she does speak life over the kids like, oh, that's so sweet. I think it's like an internal battle. You don't like fakeness, I don't like fakeness.
Kevin Thompson [00:22:33]:
And I'm very logical. So I'm like, well, you know what I mean.
Blaine Neufeld [00:22:39]:
I do know what you mean.
Kevin Thompson [00:22:40]:
To a fault.
Blaine Neufeld [00:22:40]:
Right.
Kevin Thompson [00:22:41]:
Because our son is the same way.
Blaine Neufeld [00:22:42]:
Right. And, and I don't know what I'm supposed to say, but.
Kevin Thompson [00:22:48]:
I'm verbally processing it.
Blaine Neufeld [00:22:49]:
No, but she was also taught this. Right. So the things that I love now about the logical side of her, it's just no, this is yes and this is no, I love it. Right. There's no touchy feely. But when it's too harsh, I was like, whoa, whoa, whoa. Like you gotta, you know, that sort.
Kevin Thompson [00:23:06]:
Of thing, you gotta find the balance.
Blaine Neufeld [00:23:07]:
And that's where the two of them butt heads, the kid.
Kevin Thompson [00:23:09]:
And there is a difference between discretion and deception. Deception is I'm lying to you. Discretion is I recognize for me to answer the question that's actually been presented is going to be harmful to you and isn't really that important. So think about the difference between this. Your child brings something to you and literally it's like a four year old manic. Because they're four. Right? Who cares about the object? Let's speak to the life. Let's say your child walks in with something sticking out of their hand.
Kevin Thompson [00:23:41]:
Well, you can't in that moment go, oh well, it's not real. Let's speak life into them. We gotta what's stuck in your hand? Let's figure that out. Right. And so discretion is able to tell the difference between those two scenarios. Deception is I'm going to protect myself. I'm going to say things that aren't really true to you and actually in the long run will end up injuring you. It is not going to injure your child.
Kevin Thompson [00:24:06]:
For you to redirect from the question that was actually asked into what are the real issues underneath the surface. Same thing with your spouse, same thing in other places. Another aspect within this, whenever it comes to lying, recognize discretion and deception are different. Also begin to recognize the basic idea that we can have surprises, we're not gonna have secrets. So telling the truth does not mean I have to go tell dad we're throwing a surprise birthday party for him this way. Our family can't do surprise birthday parties because we tell the truth. No, no, no, no. There's nothing wrong with a surprise.
Kevin Thompson [00:24:45]:
Now. We don't have secrets. We do not have things. Oh, don't tell mom this, right? We joke with my kids all the time, especially when they're little. But even now, we'll go out to eat on a Saturday. I take my kids to lunch every Saturday. We'll go out to eat and like, I'll get them a cookie or something like that. I'm really getting me a cookie.
Kevin Thompson [00:25:03]:
But they're gonna get a bite, right? And I'll be like, don't tell mom.
Blaine Neufeld [00:25:07]:
Right.
Kevin Thompson [00:25:07]:
But who's the first one that tells me when we get home? I am. I model for them that we don't keep these secrets. And they're always. Whenever they were little, thought I was, you know, what are you doing? Like, dad can't hold a secret. No, no. I'm showing you. We do not have this kind of deception in our household. Modeling that for them.
Blaine Neufeld [00:25:26]:
Yeah. It is interesting watching our kids grow up. And one thing that eats at me because I always wanted to be, like I would have said a while ago, a cool dad. You can come to me with anything. But it's really the sneakiness that gets me. And it's like, listen, son, we've all been there. I've been there. You're not tricking me.
Blaine Neufeld [00:25:44]:
I need you to know that. And it's okay to tell me. And we're, we're breaking, breaking down some of those walls because in the end, when it's actually something in my life and our lives that we want to have him come to us with, I want him to know it's safe.
Kevin Thompson [00:25:59]:
Like the big things.
Blaine Neufeld [00:26:00]:
Yeah, the big things. And I love that, you know, we're not in a house of fear. I think that's a big trap that Satan puts on households is this idea that you can't talk about this stuff with your parents.
Kevin Thompson [00:26:11]:
So I have a 17 year old son and obviously now driving girlfriend, you know, all those kind of things. And here's what I told him. Look, if you're ever in a situation, call me. And I want your opening line to be, dad, I need you.
Blaine Neufeld [00:26:27]:
Okay?
Kevin Thompson [00:26:28]:
And if I hear that phrase, I'm not getting mad, I'm not asking questions, I'm not doing anything. The full resources of who I am are now leveraged for you and for your well being. And we will figure it out now. But I need a headline. I need to know from the get go that this is where this is so that I can mentally fixate in so I don't go down dad land and immediately get frustrated or mad or trying to figure out what's going on. But that line, Dad, I need you. All right, here we go.
Blaine Neufeld [00:26:59]:
So how do you get to that place? Because I'm assuming one of the reasons that we get so scared is we want the control. We want to know that our kids are super safe. How did you get there? Where it's like you actually trust God is obviously working and you want to.
Kevin Thompson [00:27:13]:
Be in that spot. I don't know if I am there, but I think in part it's the recognition of, look, if we don't have that, I have no control, I have no influence. Maybe that's what it is. Let's go. Stay in your lane for a minute. Hey, hey. Control, influence and accept.
Blaine Neufeld [00:27:27]:
Love it.
Kevin Thompson [00:27:28]:
Right? So control what's mine, influence what's theirs, accept what's God's. Whenever I try to control something I can only influence, I lose both. 17 year old son, I can't control him, I can't control where he is. I can't control circumstances. I have some levers I can pull, but in the end there's certain things that I don't, I can't control. So how do I get influence? Well, I have to let go of control because if it comes influence, that's just gonna buy into more deceit. If I'm trying to micromanage that convinces him to see, we all know if we have a boss who tries to micromanage us, we're gonna try to try to not let them know some of the things that we're doing just so we can get things done so we don't have to deal with it. Right.
Kevin Thompson [00:28:09]:
But if we have a boss who leans in and says, man, I trust you, go do what you need to do, we are more likely to involve them. Correct. Hey, what's your opinion? How should I handle this? Our kids are that way as well. So I think, and we're struggling with this, no doubt with a 20 year old and 17 year old, but to recognize we do not have control of these two human beings, that's cool. How do we have influence? Well, the way we have influence is to speak these things into being.
Blaine Neufeld [00:28:33]:
I love it. I love it. Yeah, I love it. Okay, so there's honesty and there's dishonesty. What are those two elements due to this world of marriage? When you're talking about truth and love and being honest and dishonest and all.
Kevin Thompson [00:28:47]:
Of it in the world in which we live. I mean, of married life.
Blaine Neufeld [00:28:51]:
Yeah.
Kevin Thompson [00:28:51]:
I mean, it's just so frustrating. The three of us, along with Jenny, the four of us should never lie to each other.
Blaine Neufeld [00:28:59]:
Right.
Kevin Thompson [00:28:59]:
Because every single day we're involved in situations where the lie is explaining exposed and just the heartache that is there and how it just has this erosive effect on every aspect of who we are. Right? And so the affair is revealed, and the whole foundation of the marriage is ripped apart. Now, let's say divorce happens. It feels like you lose half of your story, right? And for your kids, all that is taken away. And just you ripple that into a thousand different areas. And so what does dishonesty do? It breaks trust. So the friendship begins to wear down, which destroys respect, which means the partnership is gone, which now eliminates any chance of vulnerability. So true intimacy is robbed.
Kevin Thompson [00:29:46]:
And yet many early on, many couples still continue to have sex. So now there's this divide that happens between their emotions, their brain, their heart, their soul, and their body. So they're placing their body in a place while they're trying to hold back their heart, mind, and soul. And just the danger that that comes in. Think about the amount of stress that that adds. It causes you to begin to have to guess. Even if you hear what your spouse had to say, you're having to put more energy into it to discern, are they telling me the truth or not telling me the truth? I'm having to read every body language, all the tone that's in there. It's exhausting.
Kevin Thompson [00:30:19]:
Dishonesty in the end, is exhausting. But the irony is, why do we tend to implement it? Because we think the truth is too difficult, right?
Kevin Thompson [00:30:28]:
Yeah. We had a situation this week where we had a time frame for a plan, and Blaine told me one thing, and in my mind, it was different. And so we went back to review the plan for, like, the month or whatever. He's like, we got these days. We got these days. And then he told me a week, but really the amount of time was three days. So in my mind, I'm being very vague. I know, but in my mind, we had, like, a week together, but really we only had three days.
Kevin Thompson [00:31:03]:
And I was like, you're a liar, because you are not telling me. I was mad. I was mad. And I was like, you didn't tell me the full truth. You, like, you cushioned it. You know, you made it fluffy so that it's not exact. And I want exact because we said I'm logical and I plan and that really, like, I felt like I couldn't trust him for, like, you know, we didn't Talk for, like, 10 minutes in the car because I was just like, yeah, steaming.
Blaine Neufeld [00:31:28]:
So first off the positive, 10 minutes, not 10 days, not.
Kevin Thompson [00:31:32]:
You know what I'm saying?
Blaine Neufeld [00:31:32]:
So there.
Kevin Thompson [00:31:33]:
Absolutely.
Blaine Neufeld [00:31:33]:
So there. I'm so excited that we're making improvements because this is an ongoing.
Kevin Thompson [00:31:37]:
Which is even more irritating.
Kevin Thompson [00:31:40]:
He's so positive.
Kevin Thompson [00:31:41]:
Kevin, this fight is so great. Look at how much better this fight is than last.
Blaine Neufeld [00:31:46]:
And I just say that because I don't want the other person listening saying, like, oh, wow, 10 minutes. Like, you know, I'm saying I'm a little bit aware of that. But, yeah, I am very aware now more than ever that I'm trying to keep everything fluffy and keep it nice.
Kevin Thompson [00:32:01]:
And safe because you have so much love.
Blaine Neufeld [00:32:04]:
But what's that? Insecurity.
Kevin Thompson [00:32:05]:
But anyway, no, I love. I love this illustration right here. I think this is a perfect example, and we see it all the time, where one who doesn't want to hurt the feelings of the other, who wants to encourage and build up the other person, will put a bend on the truth that isn't fully truthful. And thinking that, all right, we'll make this all work out. And that kind of thing, not recognizing that that actually creates distrust in the other person whenever it. That idea doesn't come to fruition the way it was explained. And so what can actually create. So the very thing you want to avoid, creating tension and disagreement and frustration your action actually creates.
Kevin Thompson [00:32:54]:
And the very thing that you think would create it, to actually take responsibility and say, this is exactly what it is, would actually avoid the very thing. So it's a beautiful picture of how messed up we are in our actions that oftentimes the behavior we want to avoid, the outcome we want to avoid, creates an action in us that creates the very thing we're trying to avoid. And the way to change all that is to lean into the thing that doesn't come natural to us. And so it would be better for you to say, look, we might only have a couple days together, and it'd actually be three then for you to say, oh, we got a week. It's actually only going to be narrowed down to this little part. And so it takes courage now for you to pause and go, okay, this is going to be uncomfortable in the moment, but in the long run, it's going to be so much better. And here's the irony. There are places in which you easily do that.
Kevin Thompson [00:33:48]:
So your friend texts you, I'm mad. Great. Let's be uncomfortable so that in the long run, we can be good. So what's beautiful about that, that is not hypocrisy. That is, you're growing in this area in one place. Use the lessons you've learned there and apply it back over here into marriage. Just as you're growing in places of marriage, use that to apply it in a friendship.
Blaine Neufeld [00:34:09]:
Yeah. And it's. I'm also aware that it's nicer to have that conversation three weeks before the trip versus after the trip.
Kevin Thompson [00:34:19]:
Yes.
Blaine Neufeld [00:34:19]:
So you know what I'm saying? So it's like suddenly, oh, well, we did all this, and we. You should be happy. No, you're mad. What? No. Because you lied to me. It was supposed to be this, but it ended up being that. So I'm even robbing. I'm hearing it now.
Blaine Neufeld [00:34:31]:
I'm robbing the joys of what it could be by trying to butter it up.
Kevin Thompson [00:34:35]:
Expectations are not met. If you would have just placed the expectations where they really are.
Blaine Neufeld [00:34:41]:
Yeah.
Kevin Thompson [00:34:42]:
Let me. Let me give you a case study. All right? Let's. Let's do Jack and Jill, just for easy names, right? So Jill grows up in a family where you can't trust anybody. You got to be dependent upon yourself. You have to be. No. Nobody's going to be there to meet your needs.
Kevin Thompson [00:34:53]:
That's Jill. Right?
Kevin Thompson [00:34:54]:
Poor Jill.
Kevin Thompson [00:34:55]:
Jack. Yeah. No doubt. Jack grew up in a family where he had to take care of everything. He had to grow up way too fast, be responsible for everybody and everything. And so think about Jack takes on everything, Will not say no to anything. Will do everything. So now they're in relationship.
Kevin Thompson [00:35:10]:
Jill is learning to be vulnerable and learning to say, hey, Jack, could you help me with this huge step? Right? And Jack wants to encourage that in Jill to learn that you can depend upon me. These patterns that saved you and your family of origin are gonna kill us now. So depend upon me in a way that you've never been able to depend on anybody. But here's the problem. Jack, now wanting to draw that out of Jill, does not have the ability. Whenever she asks, hey, can you help me with this? He doesn't have the courage to say, you know what? Today I can't. Because he's afraid that if he says no, that's going to confirm her story, that she can't depend upon anybody, and she's gonna keep on being independent and not Trust him. But what happens? He agrees to do something that there's no way he's gonna be able to do.
Kevin Thompson [00:35:54]:
It lets her down.
Kevin Thompson [00:35:55]:
And so he lets her down, which actually confirms the very story that he wants to avoid. And so you pull this couple together and you show them Jack. What you need to do is before you say yes, you really need to process it. Hey, thank you so much for asking me, man. Let me think about this. To think, because the most damaging thing to Jill is not you saying, no, I can't do this. The most damaging thing to Jill is for you to say, yes, I can. And then not.
Kevin Thompson [00:36:20]:
Because that confirms the story she's always written. And then he needs to get to a place to recognize there are times where she have to say, no, you cannot take care of everything. And so that's an example of how two families of origin come together in this new relationship. It's no accident they're attracted to each other. He's attracted to somebody who isn't too needy because he's surrounded by people who are needy. She's attracted by somebody who's actually trustworthy, who actually meet needs. And yet their defense mechanisms are up because while they're drawn to that, they don't understand it. And now if they don't learn how to operate in a good way, they will actually rewrite the very story that their lives were found upon that were so damaging to begin with.
Kevin Thompson [00:37:04]:
And y' all are going to have a story like that as well. It's just going to be, the details are going to be different. Every couple is going to have those things. And now we have to learn how do we make sure we leverage them for our health and not for lack of health?
Blaine Neufeld [00:37:17]:
Yeah, yeah, so true.
Kevin Thompson [00:37:21]:
No, I mean, it makes sense.
Kevin Thompson [00:37:23]:
Yeah, time wise, we're kind of near the end. So let's just kind of draw some practical applications to see how can we go about this. One thing I would say is, first of all, let's, as a house, not just as a marriage, as a house, say, truth is something we honor now, truth spoken in love. In other words, you don't just get to walk around shouting your opinions in harshness. So it's a very fair question whenever it is to ask somebody, when they say something, to say one, is that true? And notice, is that fully true? Is that true? In light of God and his story and everything that he is and all these things, is that true? Now are you saying that with love, is there a true desire for the well being of the person you're speaking to and not just for protection of yourself. All right, we're going to honor that. Secondly, what that means is in this house, lying is going to be looked at in a way far greater than anything else, that this is a danger. Imagine how you would react if there were break ins in your neighborhood.
Kevin Thompson [00:38:35]:
You would say, man, we got to protect this house. We've got to be really careful. We do not want somebody breaking in because it's a threat to us. Lying is a threat to us.
Blaine Neufeld [00:38:42]:
Yeah, that's good.
Kevin Thompson [00:38:43]:
And now we recognize as kids are growing up, they're going to lie. Everybody lies. But we have to now confront that in a very compassionate way. We have to show them consequences to what's going on because of how serious this is and let them experience the consequences of what that looks like. That look, all right, I don't like that you disobeyed this rule and there's a consequence to that. But the greater consequence is this lie that happened. We got to stop that in every way. And so then what does it look like to begin to learn? All right, if one leans toward truth and one leans toward love, how do we exaggerate the other way and even have a great deal of grace, Especially if you're married to somebody who struggles to be vulnerable in telling the truth.
Kevin Thompson [00:39:28]:
Give them permission to overstep the boundary a little bit. Give them permission to, hey, all right, I would rather you say something to me that kind of comes across as a little bit unloving and then we can correct that. But if they say something instead of immediately going, oh, wow, that hurts, or getting defensive, hey, man, that had to be hard for you to say. Thank you for saying that. And then you can have the conversation later about what that looks like. And then also then if you have somebody who speaks truth so easily that sometimes they can come across as not loving, what would that look like if you actually started holding back a little bit? That your personality is one that you just so easily share everything. They're not all necessary. What does it make sure if we look like? One thing I said on Sunday that I think is so important for parents is that we overestimate how much our kids feel loved by us and we underestimate how much they already know what we believe.
Kevin Thompson [00:40:23]:
And so I think speaking truth and love, yes, you got to speak truth and love to your kids, no question. But especially the older they get, teenagers, young adult children, they know what I think there's nothing my kids could do in which they're going to wonder. I wonder what dad thinks about this. They know the question they're always asking is, does he love me? So let me fixate on making sure that I'm communicating that love. And then just in everything that we do, how can we create a climate change in which we want to woo the heart of the other out? And to make sure that's defining who we are? And if we do that, there's a power to it. I don't know if y' all have seen the study or not, but a study has been done that when a dentist tells you, this shot is about to hurt, it actually hurts less than if they were to say, oh, this won't be any big deal at all. So the awareness and basically the trust that that creates, that, hey, this is gonna hurt for a minute, but he's telling me this, and so I know that actually lessens our pain.
Blaine Neufeld [00:41:20]:
That's good.
Kevin Thompson [00:41:20]:
And so to have that ability to share the truth and compassionate grace with each other will actually lessen our pain. It won't increase it.
Blaine Neufeld [00:41:30]:
That's what I gotta do to you is this is gonna hurt a little bit.
Kevin Thompson [00:41:33]:
And I'm gonna say, you're not gonna like this.
Blaine Neufeld [00:41:34]:
You're not gonna like this. But is that true?
Kevin Thompson [00:41:37]:
I bet you I think it's worth trying. I'd love to hear how that works, but. Yes. But to say. Cause what you're doing there is. You're recognizing, man, this is not ideal.
Blaine Neufeld [00:41:47]:
And it's allowing me to be straight up with the truth, which is what I want. And I'm trying to guess how she's going to react to whatever I'm about.
Kevin Thompson [00:41:54]:
Because you're protecting yourself from my reaction.
Blaine Neufeld [00:41:57]:
You're not gonna like this. I'm going golfing.
Kevin Thompson [00:42:00]:
Yeah, well, I'm. That I already. Well, you are all weekend.
Kevin Thompson [00:42:05]:
I don't know if I'd say it that way. That's a negotiation.
Blaine Neufeld [00:42:09]:
Okay.
Kevin Thompson [00:42:09]:
Okay. But I. I do. I do think super seriously, Adrienne, when you're married to a nine who sometimes is not fully out there with how they're feeling, what they're thinking, and kind of vacillating back and forth, the temptation for Blaine in that situation is to get into a role in which he's trying to manage your emotions, that is not your job.
Kevin Thompson [00:42:30]:
Yeah, because he's a fixer.
Kevin Thompson [00:42:31]:
Yes, that is not your job. Now, it would attract the two of you to each other, but you have to refuse to play that role and instead honor the humanity that is hers. Her own decision making. Right. You can influence. You can't control it. And so instead of coming in going, I'm going to read the room and try to figure out how to manage this, come in and bring to the table, what are the facts? And then allow her to process her.
Kevin Thompson [00:42:54]:
Own emotions, because that's like the thermostat versus the thermometer.
Kevin Thompson [00:42:58]:
Oh, wow.
Blaine Neufeld [00:42:59]:
Oh, we're listening.
Kevin Thompson [00:42:59]:
Wait, what?
Blaine Neufeld [00:43:00]:
We are listening.
Kevin Thompson [00:43:01]:
Drawing it back.
Kevin Thompson [00:43:02]:
How about that?
Kevin Thompson [00:43:04]:
It all makes sense.
Blaine Neufeld [00:43:05]:
It does.
Kevin Thompson [00:43:05]:
It's all like a big puzzle.
Blaine Neufeld [00:43:08]:
And that's why, James.
Kevin Thompson [00:43:12]:
That'S why it's not left to a game of chance right there, because it is predictable. We can make it happen.
Blaine Neufeld [00:43:18]:
Good. As always, Kev.
Kevin Thompson [00:43:19]:
Sounds good.
Blaine Neufeld [00:43:19]:
Yeah.
Kevin Thompson [00:43:20]:
Good to see you guys. See you all next time.