Blaine Neufeld [00:00:01]:
Welcome back to Change the Odd Podcast.
Kevin Thompson [00:00:03]:
Whoa.
Blaine Neufeld [00:00:03]:
That's a different voice.
Kevin Thompson [00:00:04]:
And you're back.
Blaine Neufeld [00:00:05]:
I'm back.
Kevin Thompson [00:00:05]:
Y' all are back.
Blaine Neufeld [00:00:06]:
We're back.
Kevin Thompson [00:00:06]:
Where have y' all been?
Blaine Neufeld [00:00:07]:
We have been out and about.
Kevin Thompson [00:00:09]:
Yes, out and about.
Blaine Neufeld [00:00:10]:
A boot. That's a good Canadian would say. We are very excited to be hosting this time. We're flipping the script here a little bit. We have the local expert, Kevin Thompson.
Kevin Thompson [00:00:19]:
Just local.
Blaine Neufeld [00:00:20]:
Just local.
Adrienne Neufeld [00:00:21]:
Local from Arkansas.
Kevin Thompson [00:00:22]:
Apparently that national ministry isn't working very well right now.
Blaine Neufeld [00:00:25]:
Not even county based. Just local. But we are excited today, right, babe? Because we're going to be talking about the window of tolerance. And this is a term that you have been using and becoming an expert on. So we're always excited to learn. So, Kev, let's talk about it. Should we get right into it?
Adrienne Neufeld [00:00:42]:
Why not?
Blaine Neufeld [00:00:43]:
Yeah, let's do it.
Kevin Thompson [00:00:44]:
So here's the idea. So we are talking kind of a little bit deeper kind of terminology. Not something that probably comes up at your house on a regular basis.
Blaine Neufeld [00:00:51]:
Babe, are you in the Witness recently?
Kevin Thompson [00:00:56]:
Probably have a different meaning of what you thought the window of tolerance actually was. But this is a term. Dan Siegel down at ucla, right? Founder of Interpersonal Neurobiology. How do relationships rewire the brain? He coined this term many years ago. And I think it's one of those things that as we begin the episode, people are gonna be like, hey, this is. Who cares about the psychological stuff? Doesn't matter. But by the end, if they will pay attention, if y' all will pay attention, we'll begin to see. Oh, my goodness.
Kevin Thompson [00:01:23]:
This applies so much to myself, to marriage, obviously. Parent, huge application to parenting, but also application to work as well. So let's just get an idea of what is the window of tolerance. The window of tolerance. Imagine there is an actual window. Imagine this TV now is a window that you're looking out, right? So there's a space in which air can flow back and forth right above it, you can't. Below it, you can't. There's a space now that it can actually change the climate of what's taking place.
Kevin Thompson [00:01:54]:
So picture that now as there's a top and there's a bottom. The window of tolerance, in the most basic of sense is where your energy flow is at the proper level. So it's not too little to where you're not engaged at all, but it's not spiked out to where it's too much. Instead, it is the proper amount of engagement to deal with whatever you're dealing with in the moment. And so you can think of it like the optimal zone of energy. And here's the amazing thing about this window of tolerance is we all kind of naturally have a window. For some it's wider, for some it's more narrow. But I think what's gonna be really exciting is we can actually influence it.
Kevin Thompson [00:02:39]:
So this is an area we can grow. And as we grow, then it changes conflict. It changes every aspect of our homes.
Adrienne Neufeld [00:02:47]:
Is it kind of like saying, like, you're high capacity, like, you can handle a lot of stress? Some people have high capacity. I am not a high capacity person, Blaine. Like, this morning, it's our daughter's birthday today. I was trying to get everybody ready for school, pack their lunches. I just felt like I had a thousand things on my brain and Blaine's, like, asking me something. I'm like, I can't, I can't. He's like, and kids, she is not in her window of tolerance. I was like.
Blaine Neufeld [00:03:13]:
Because, like, one of my first wonders is, what are the impacts? What does impact? You said we can impact it, we can stretch it, but what are the impacts that the window starts closing to an unhealthy level?
Kevin Thompson [00:03:25]:
Oh, yes. No. All the things. This is all the. So, yes, Adrian, you are in that range of what we're discussing at that moment. And some people just naturally. Personality plays into it, attachment plays into it. Some people just naturally have a wider range, but we all can step out in some way.
Kevin Thompson [00:03:42]:
And so let's get into what happens whenever you step out of that. Because there's above the window and there's below the window, and those express themselves in different ways. And we all are going to have the ability to go either direction, but we're going to be predisposed toward one. And there's actually a gender connection stereotype in that. So it's called hyper arousal and hypo arousal. So hyperarousal above the window. This is where you get so overwhelmed, so stressed that your energy flow almost becomes too much. I think about it, like, if we were to turn.
Kevin Thompson [00:04:16]:
If somebody's driving in the car right now, they were to turn their volume all the way up, there would be so much sound coming out of those speakers that it would begin to distort. Right?
Blaine Neufeld [00:04:28]:
Yeah. Can I interject, please? Because this morning driving to school, and for some reason I was in the left lane, There was music going. The kids were screaming, and I'm like, quiet. And I didn't know how to get over. And I'm like, what am I doing here? Because I was outside this. There's too much going on.
Adrienne Neufeld [00:04:45]:
It's rare for you.
Kevin Thompson [00:04:46]:
Very rare.
Blaine Neufeld [00:04:47]:
Like, let's go deeper on that. I was, like, startled by my. Myself. I was like, this is amazing.
Adrienne Neufeld [00:04:52]:
I was cute because I was like, why are you telling them to be quiet? You don't care. I'm the one. Yeah, that would tell.
Blaine Neufeld [00:04:56]:
And so then I did finally get over.
Kevin Thompson [00:04:58]:
Well, I mean, it's kind of like the old joke of, you know, you know, you pull up to the bank or something like that. Let's say you're going to do the ATM back when that was a thing and you turn your radio down, Right? Well, why.
Blaine Neufeld [00:05:14]:
Yeah, there was.
Adrienne Neufeld [00:05:14]:
Yeah. Or like, turn it down. I can't see.
Kevin Thompson [00:05:16]:
Why am I turning. Why am I turning my radio down? But it really is. The brain can only process so much information at a time. And so even though it makes no sense that I'm having to do this at this moment, you think about sometimes if you're in a big city in traffic, you might turn the radio down. When our kids were little, we would obviously, back then in Arkansas at a smaller town, and we would drive to the beach. And so whenever we would drive through Memphis, a little bit bigger setting than what I was used to at the time, a whole lot more traffic. We actually, with the kids turned it into no Talk Tennessee. And so we're going from Arkansas into Mississippi.
Kevin Thompson [00:05:54]:
You'd only be in Tennessee for maybe 30 minutes as you're in the city. And I'd say, all right, kids, no talk in Tennessee. We can't talk in this entire state because what's happening now, Jenny and I are navigating. This is before the maps and cell phones and Siri was telling us exactly what to do. We're having to navigate where we're going, and more information now is going to begin to blur out what's going on. When somebody is in hyper arousal, that's exactly what's taking place. They have more inputs coming into them that they can process in that moment, and they become extremely agitated. Their energy becomes very high.
Kevin Thompson [00:06:30]:
So this really is a fight or flight that now in hyper arousal, they are either going to punch you or they're going to run. But the energy is ratcheted up. That's above the window. Below the window is hypoarousal. This is not enough energy. This is now a. Literally I'm having to check out out of fear of what's going on. It's so overwhelming to me.
Kevin Thompson [00:06:58]:
I'm now going to shut down. So you think about fight or flight at the top of the window. This is freeze or fawn in the bottom of the window, where I'm just going to collapse. I'm going to emotionally not be involved. And so now what's taking place is a person doesn't have enough energy to deal with what is actually going on in the moment. So think about this.
Blaine Neufeld [00:07:17]:
That's interesting.
Kevin Thompson [00:07:18]:
We all have a predisposition toward one over the other. Well, we can do either one, no doubt, but we have a predisposition toward one over the other. And in a grand gender stereotype, again, not going to be true in every case, but generically, a little bit more true. Women tend toward hyper arousal. Men tend toward hypo aroused. Now, it could be that men tend toward that out of fear of what we might do with. With our strength. I mean, it could be a.
Kevin Thompson [00:07:47]:
Could be a true protective mechanism. Now, we don't. We don't want to use our strength in a negative way against those that. That we love. Yeah. And so the only thing we know how to do whenever that gets ramped up is to literally shut it down.
Blaine Neufeld [00:08:00]:
Right.
Kevin Thompson [00:08:00]:
It could be that. That's the case. And for a woman, it could be. I mean, just talking about generations ago back on the prairie. Right. It could be this idea of now in such desperate need of protection of others of the community, that for safety's sake, they flare up in order to be seen. Come help me in some way. I don't know if y' all have these birds in Canada that whenever you get near their nest, they'll run around on the ground and they're trying to draw your attention away from the nest and to the.
Kevin Thompson [00:08:30]:
They're willing to sacrifice themselves. Right. They're in a state of hyper arousal to try to get the attention. It could be that that's what's going on. I don't know.
Blaine Neufeld [00:08:38]:
Well, I mean, I just jumped last night. We have a men's. And it's interesting, like the hypo, because it takes a lot for guys to kind of get to a spot of vulnerability and sharing and where a lady or gals might be like instantly there to share and da, da, da, da. You know what I'm saying? It's interesting when you say the guy gotta get brought up to that level. So that's cool.
Kevin Thompson [00:09:00]:
Yeah. So let's consider kind of what begins to shape this, and then we can get into how we can shape it and what we can actually do with it. And then I think we can ask some parenting questions, some marriage Questions and then work as well. So a few things will begin to shape. This one is just temperament itself. Right. I think y' all have already described it just a little bit that Adrian, you can look in Blaine and just see he just has a calmer Persona by nature than what we would have.
Blaine Neufeld [00:09:29]:
Is that what you're gonna say? Pages where it's I said than we.
Kevin Thompson [00:09:33]:
I said than what we would have.
Adrienne Neufeld [00:09:35]:
No, I know if he's stressed, he's really stressed. Because it's rare where I'm like stressed. As soon as I wake up, I live in the stress.
Kevin Thompson [00:09:44]:
And so temperament definitely begins to play into it. You can even begin to look at the concept of attachment. Style is going to play into it. So somebody with a more avoidant attachment will tend toward a hypo arousal. Somebody with a more anxious attachment will tend toward a hyper arousal. It's a great way, actually. We all have these patterns of secure and then these non secure pathways. It's a good way to begin to identify what our non secure pathway is.
Kevin Thompson [00:10:14]:
Oftentimes whether we are hyper aroused, hypo aroused. There's also an aspect that many people forget about and that is some nervous systems are just more sensitive. Just we didn't ask for it. It's just genetically who we are. That for some, it takes more stimulus to get a response. For others, it takes less stimulus. So literally something as simple as a touch. For some people, if you were to just touch them that lightly, they would barely even feel it.
Kevin Thompson [00:10:46]:
For others, it would be very noticeable and they would turn. Oh, wow.
Blaine Neufeld [00:10:50]:
Okay, we'll look over.
Kevin Thompson [00:10:53]:
We just hit. We just hit something right there.
Adrienne Neufeld [00:10:56]:
He's always poking me and flicking me and like trying to grab me in places and like, it's so jarring. But he's like, he doesn't. You know, I don't think it's the same. That makes a lot of sense to me. I'm just like.
Blaine Neufeld [00:11:12]:
Can I just also say you can analyze us here. It might be a scream for you to touch me. Because when you said one finger, if she does that to me, oh, do I feel loved? Just one little one. But if I do that, get up to me.
Adrienne Neufeld [00:11:26]:
Well, you're not usually doing that. So it's a little bit more aggressive.
Kevin Thompson [00:11:33]:
Yeah. I think to even recognize that and think about this, even within your children, you'll begin to see that.
Blaine Neufeld [00:11:38]:
And I remember you telling you about how stress comes down when people. You feel that touch. And so that obviously moves the window open. It can, or it could.
Kevin Thompson [00:11:47]:
Yeah, very much so. But begin to notice within your kids something like pain tolerance. Some kids, and then obviously adults as well, have a higher sense of pain tolerance. Some have a lower sense of pain tolerance. Then here's the mistake that we make is we assume everybody else feels what we feel, or if they don't, something must be wrong with them. Not recognizing if you're the one that.
Adrienne Neufeld [00:12:12]:
Has something wrong with them.
Blaine Neufeld [00:12:13]:
No, no, no.
Kevin Thompson [00:12:14]:
Not realizing that there's a sensitivity difference. That it literally is different in the same way that surfaces. This has a harder feel than that carpet has. So to human beings, we take in information in different ways. And so some of us are much more sensitive to the stimulus that's going around. And notice this. So there's two aspects of this. There is the amount of stimulus it takes to get a response, and then there is the volume of response that is given.
Kevin Thompson [00:12:44]:
We also give different volumes of response. And so whether we feel it or not doesn't matter. For some of us, whenever we kind of have stimulus that comes in and that we're going to now respond, we just naturally respond at a lower level.
Blaine Neufeld [00:12:58]:
Right.
Kevin Thompson [00:12:59]:
Whereas others can ratchet it up to just an immediate kind of concept. So whenever it comes to this idea of sensitivity, both of those things are at play. So you could have a high sensitivity and still be low response, or you could be low response and have a high sense of sensitivity, or you can. One of my children has a high sensitivity and a high response, and so I just have to recognize that they're processing in a far different way. Which is hilarious whenever you think about me.
Blaine Neufeld [00:13:32]:
Right, right.
Kevin Thompson [00:13:32]:
It was going to be a low, double low. Yeah. Just kind of lay back. And so it really takes some work and energy and effort to begin to figure out, all right, what's going on within this person.
Blaine Neufeld [00:13:45]:
Yeah. Like, two of the questions that I had was, you know, how. How do people change their way of communicating when they're outside it? How can you see that they're affected and it's noticeable that they're outside of it? So that the spouse or the person in the relationship or the boss or the coworker can be like, oof, I can see that. And then almost like, how do you start to push the person back into a healthy position?
Kevin Thompson [00:14:10]:
Yeah, let's get into that. Let me go one more thing. And then I want to get into that, because there's. There's another aspect that I think is important whenever it comes to what has shaped our window of tolerance. And the other thing is our childhood experiences. And then not just within childhood. But our trauma experiences overall, and specifically trauma during childhood would play into it. But let's say somebody has a very traumatic event as an adult that can greatly impact their window of tolerance.
Kevin Thompson [00:14:38]:
They can become much more aware, safety conscious, concerned, worry, and rightly so. I mean, imagine, you know, as we're sitting here today, there's been a series of universities, at colleges and schools as well, of acts of violence. Well, if you go. If you're a teacher and you go through one of those scenarios, it would only make sense that for years to come, that is going to impact your window of tolerance.
Adrienne Neufeld [00:15:08]:
Yeah, like, you hear a noise, and you're instantly like, fight or flight.
Kevin Thompson [00:15:11]:
Yeah, fight or flight. On alert. No question. But then just our basic childhood experiences. How well were our emotions met whenever we were kids? How in touch with our parents were they of their own emotions? What was the interaction that would take place in the midst of that? You know, the famous story for, I don't know, y' all might be too young, but for my generation, it was, you're crying in the backseat, you know, and a parent might say, I'll give you a reason to cry. So that kind of. We're now going to move, Meet energy with energy almost, which can cause you to begin to close that window of tolerance. Whereas if you have a parent that really kind of meets you where you are and provides safety and comfort in the midst of that emotional dysregulation, well, then the next thing you know, you can have a much wider kind of window.
Kevin Thompson [00:16:03]:
So let's get to your question. That's good, Blaine. That basic concept of, okay, how do we change this? What does this begin to look like? And I think the first thing that we do is we just begin to recognize what's going on. And here's what I think is interesting. It's easier oftentimes to recognize this than others than ourselves.
Blaine Neufeld [00:16:21]:
Sure.
Kevin Thompson [00:16:21]:
Right.
Adrienne Neufeld [00:16:22]:
Classic.
Kevin Thompson [00:16:22]:
We go, oh, wow, look at mom. Yes. These are the things you think in your head you do not say outside. You can't claim that you are teaching the kids about window of tolerance as you're like, hey, kids, hey, you all want to see me get mom out of her window of tolerance? You nailed. Doesn't work in that way, but it does. It does begin to say, all right, let's see what's going on. Let's evaluate what's going on here. And whenever that happens, then what we have to do is to use our energy to fight.
Kevin Thompson [00:16:57]:
But we're not fighting for control. We're fighting for calm and so, okay, let's say there's a spat that's going on. Right. These are the things that often lead to get outside of our window of tolerance. Because many times the debate, the discussion, the fight happens because we're already on the edge. Right, Right. So think about for. If you're a couple, why is it that sometimes one issue we can laugh off and it's no big deal whatsoever, and the next issue, the fight is on and it's the same thing.
Blaine Neufeld [00:17:29]:
Right.
Kevin Thompson [00:17:29]:
But in one setting it's fine. In the other setting it's not. That's because of. Where are we in our window of tolerance based on everything else that's happened that day, based on what we're feeling? I mean, all those kinds of things.
Adrienne Neufeld [00:17:41]:
Also, like, physical, like, I feel more. If I've had caffeine, I'm quicker to just like. Like, react poorly.
Blaine Neufeld [00:17:52]:
Not sure what word to say here.
Adrienne Neufeld [00:17:54]:
Snap. Snap is what I was trying to say.
Kevin Thompson [00:17:56]:
I was like, hey, Blaine, that's where we go. You snap. No, I do think, Adrian, that's a great point that I should have brought up.
Adrienne Neufeld [00:18:05]:
Yeah, you should have.
Kevin Thompson [00:18:06]:
There's all this physical nature of it. Of sleep.
Blaine Neufeld [00:18:09]:
Yes.
Adrienne Neufeld [00:18:09]:
Yeah. Oh, and when you're in that season of, like, newborn not sleeping. It's seasonally too.
Kevin Thompson [00:18:15]:
Yes.
Adrienne Neufeld [00:18:16]:
Stage of life probably all affects it.
Kevin Thompson [00:18:18]:
All those things. Yes. Will play a major role in it. So to be aware. Because there are times in which. Look, I think the idea of when the Bible says, don't let the sun go down on your anger, I think what it's talking about is do not let anger go unresolved over a long period of time. There are times in which you don't need to work out the fight. You just need to sleep.
Adrienne Neufeld [00:18:39]:
Yeah. You'll feel better in the morning.
Kevin Thompson [00:18:40]:
The next day you wake up, you're like, oh, well, that wasn't a big deal at all. That's a great example of how we are resetting ourselves back now into this window of tolerance. But to begin, and I think Blaine and Adrienne, you can begin with each other primarily, but then also maybe the easiest way for the two of you to learn about this and recognize it is together. Recognize it in your kids.
Blaine Neufeld [00:18:59]:
Yeah, that's cool.
Kevin Thompson [00:19:00]:
And I go, oh, okay. We can. Together. You can start noticing it in them.
Adrienne Neufeld [00:19:04]:
Yeah.
Kevin Thompson [00:19:05]:
Then you can start noticing about each other.
Adrienne Neufeld [00:19:07]:
Yeah.
Kevin Thompson [00:19:07]:
Then you can start noticing it about yourself. That's an easy process. And co workers and all neighbors, friends, all those kind of things.
Adrienne Neufeld [00:19:13]:
You already know that if I haven't eaten. You said the other day I was like, really grumpy because probably. Oh, I was fasting.
Blaine Neufeld [00:19:21]:
Yeah.
Adrienne Neufeld [00:19:21]:
And I was super direct. I was like, you're gonna wear that hat. He goes, and kids, we need to know that when mom has not eaten, she is honest and super direct.
Blaine Neufeld [00:19:30]:
It's a home life Our life podcast at home.
Kevin Thompson [00:19:33]:
Right.
Adrienne Neufeld [00:19:33]:
She's constantly narrating me.
Blaine Neufeld [00:19:36]:
But what's funny, it actually like takes away her guard totally. And then she allows herself to see the silliness a little bit. But at the same time, and I agree with, oh, big time.
Adrienne Neufeld [00:19:46]:
I'm aware.
Blaine Neufeld [00:19:46]:
This is what I'm saying. It's like you're far more in tune and aware of, oh, I'm actually being a little bit too much right now. I can bring it back.
Adrienne Neufeld [00:19:56]:
I'm like above my tolerance. Let's try and get back in it.
Blaine Neufeld [00:19:58]:
It is really cool because I think it takes a lot of self reflection to be humbled and say that. I'm already looking at myself this morning of how I handle the situation with one of our kids going to school and he or she is looking for this level of comfort. Part of me was like, just get in there. Just do it. And then I was like, you know what? I'm. Where am I going? I'm not going anywhere now. I'll just wait with you, buddy. And it's just.
Blaine Neufeld [00:20:23]:
It let. He's like. I'm like, what are you feeling? He's like, I have this, this, this, this. And I was like, oh, man, I had that too. And that was freeing for me to even say. And that was freeing for him to hear that dad is actually not a tough nose. He feels things too well.
Adrienne Neufeld [00:20:40]:
And you met him where he was at. That's what I'm learning right here.
Kevin Thompson [00:20:43]:
Love it. It is this idea of we have the ability to help others regulate and specifically parents, children, clearly. But here's where it becomes powerful, is whenever we within marriage begin to learn how to co regulate that I can sense right now Jenny is at a place that isn't. We're not going to be able to process this as healthily as we need to. Okay, let's step outside of the issue that's at hand and let's work on much more. The emotions, the feelings, the nervous system, all those things to come back into a spot to where now we can actually have a good meaningful conversation about this. Because let's face it, I mean, think about the old. We've done previous episodes on this.
Kevin Thompson [00:21:24]:
The whole idea of pursuing withdrawal.
Blaine Neufeld [00:21:26]:
Yeah.
Kevin Thompson [00:21:27]:
Right.
Blaine Neufeld [00:21:27]:
Yeah.
Kevin Thompson [00:21:27]:
So the fight's on. Right. Somebody with a more anxious attachment now is pursuing fear that disconnection is going to happen. Somebody with a more avoidant attachment is now withdrawing because they don't want to be overwhelmed with what's going on. One is hyper aroused. One is hypo aroused. The hyper arousal so drives the other person into a further hypo arousal. Right.
Kevin Thompson [00:21:48]:
And that person's lack of energy just greatly irritates the person. That's high energy. If both of those could begin to recognize what's going on inside of me, what's going on inside of my partner. We can't deal with an issue right now. This is not the moment to honestly have resolution. And so we got to step outside of whatever issue that sparked all this and get back into this place that then we can have an emotionally appropriate, logical discussion about the issue and come to some sort of agreement of how to move forward. And it's the couples that develop that ability to recognize. Now's not the time to deal with the issue.
Kevin Thompson [00:22:28]:
Now's the time to deal with the climate of what's going on. And yet here's what happens with many couples. Many couples become a thermometer rather than a thermostat. So a thermometer is. I'm going to tell you the temperature. What's going on. And I'm actually going to meet you there.
Blaine Neufeld [00:22:43]:
Right. Oh, boy.
Kevin Thompson [00:22:44]:
A thermostat now has this ability to regulate what the temperature is. All right. This room is too hot. I'm going to be able to cool it off. This room is too cold. I can actually warm it up. And so I think the challenge for us is to change from a thermometer of wherever they are. Temperature wise.
Kevin Thompson [00:22:59]:
I'm going to meet them right now. Think about Blaine. This is what you're talking about from a parenting perspective. The temptation.
Blaine Neufeld [00:23:03]:
Yeah.
Kevin Thompson [00:23:04]:
Is when our kids are hyper aroused. For that to cause us to be hyper aroused.
Adrienne Neufeld [00:23:08]:
And.
Kevin Thompson [00:23:08]:
Right there. Which then drives each other outside of that window. Whereas it's our job as a parent. Not easy at all.
Blaine Neufeld [00:23:15]:
No.
Kevin Thompson [00:23:16]:
Instead to help the child regulate. Now how can we begin to move forward.
Blaine Neufeld [00:23:20]:
Adjust that term. Go ahead.
Adrienne Neufeld [00:23:21]:
No, I'm glad you were up there because I am one to meet energy with whichever child he's talking about because we're very similar. And. Yeah. I just. I think you did a good job.
Blaine Neufeld [00:23:33]:
Well. And I think we're learning a lot in this season too. I was gonna say, do you not think that we adjust the thermostat far more now in just our relationship.
Adrienne Neufeld [00:23:41]:
Oh, 100%. You especially, you're very good at that.
Blaine Neufeld [00:23:44]:
But we're good at it where we. She also will recognize. It's like, I know I'm not mad at you. I'm just taking it out on you. And it's like, let that temperature come down. I know it's not our fight, but that's you regulating.
Adrienne Neufeld [00:23:56]:
You aren't taking it personally. You're kind of calling me out and then.
Blaine Neufeld [00:23:59]:
But you're far more accepting that it's also disarming. Like, because I used to go and be like, no, I'm the pursuer. I'm like, no, we're going to figure this out tonight. And then it would only cause more division.
Adrienne Neufeld [00:24:11]:
Yeah.
Blaine Neufeld [00:24:11]:
No fun in our marriage. And it would just simply, you know, divide us. Now it's like, okay, babe, when you're ready. And I don't want to sound like, oh, when you're ready, I'm ready. Like, it's. No, she's recognizing. I just got to get this out, do this thing. The emotions.
Blaine Neufeld [00:24:27]:
I got to eat. I got to all those things.
Adrienne Neufeld [00:24:29]:
And I've started vocalizing. Right. Like this morning, I was like, I am overwhelmed. Like, I can't right now.
Kevin Thompson [00:24:35]:
Which is such a great step.
Adrienne Neufeld [00:24:36]:
Yeah.
Kevin Thompson [00:24:37]:
Because sometimes. Sometimes we can feel like if we. We shouldn't get overwhelmed.
Adrienne Neufeld [00:24:42]:
Yeah.
Kevin Thompson [00:24:42]:
And so we can feel guilty and shamed. Oh.
Adrienne Neufeld [00:24:45]:
Or I've overreacted.
Blaine Neufeld [00:24:46]:
Yes.
Kevin Thompson [00:24:47]:
All that kind of thing. No, no. We all get over it.
Blaine Neufeld [00:24:49]:
That is it.
Kevin Thompson [00:24:50]:
And so the ability to recognize that and say, all right, at this moment, I'm not going to be productive or helpful in this. I'm going to step out. And this is the power of parenting. And this is. This is why it's so important to work on marriage, to help within parenting, because there are times in which we're all going to have to tap out. And so to be able to tap in when your spouse needs to tap out and then to go through these processes, especially whenever you're going through extended periods in which you have a child who's not sleeping very well, having some great emotional struggle. Teenagers. And some of the seasons that they can go into, even adult children, if you're going through an extension, extended period, which it's just very difficult, then you can literally leverage each other to then take the time.
Kevin Thompson [00:25:35]:
Gottman. I think it's Gottman who talks about the 20 minute conflict rule. So the idea is there are times in which we can see that we're engaging in a way that we're stepping outside of our window of tolerance. Let's set a timer for 20 minutes each. Go our separate ways. Maybe you need to get a cup of coffee. Maybe you need to get a drink of water. Maybe you need to eat something.
Kevin Thompson [00:25:57]:
Breathing exercises, whatever it is. Let's regulate our nervous system. And when the timer comes off, let's come back in. And whenever we come back in, don't just dive right back into it. Now let's begin in a calm tone and begin to process what's actually going on. This is a way that we're navigating that window of tolerance.
Blaine Neufeld [00:26:15]:
I'm learning on the spot and analyzing our day. And I love how God just kind of gives you the day and then you can see how he's in it already and you're learning and these things. One thing that I'm just seeing that we did this morning. So she's birthday is going on, right? There's a, you know, she's trying to do a million things, making lunches, all these things. And I'm just sitting there at the table with the kids, like, here, birthday party, Yay. I'm the youngest. I can't wait to see what party it was.
Adrienne Neufeld [00:26:40]:
Breakfast. It was breakfast. It wasn't a party. I did try. I wanted it to be special.
Blaine Neufeld [00:26:43]:
Raya, what did we get you?
Adrienne Neufeld [00:26:46]:
What did I get you?
Blaine Neufeld [00:26:47]:
But then she said, could you just not do nothing? Could you help me, please, like, in distress? And I just, like, thought, okay, why don't I just take the kids into the garage? Like, literally just remove the kid. I'm just thinking how simple some of these tasks are for us to contribute. Her environment is out of. In chaos, out of control in my mind. And she just needs peace and quiet to do it her way, which I'm grateful for. But just simply moving the kids because I'm always looking. How can we maximize? How can we grow? How can we heal and help? People listening say, oh, I could do that. Guys.
Blaine Neufeld [00:27:22]:
Look for a small little opportunity to remove the stress. Let the window go open, let the wind come in, and suddenly re engage later, is what you're saying.
Kevin Thompson [00:27:32]:
And notice, I think the brilliance within that is here's where that situation goes wrong. You immediately get defensive. And if you get defensive in that moment, then you're either going to lash back. Oh, you don't think I ever do anything or anything or just shut down. In neither way are you going to help. Correct defensiveness puts the focus on you, not back to Adrian in that moment, what you did brilliantly, there Is. And this is a rare case here that we're going to claim that Blaine. Blaine nailed this is what you did in that moment was you kind of allowed the little bit of the twinge of the verbal punch.
Kevin Thompson [00:28:14]:
You look past that into what is she actually saying? I need help.
Blaine Neufeld [00:28:18]:
Exactly.
Adrienne Neufeld [00:28:18]:
He's very good at that.
Kevin Thompson [00:28:19]:
Let's meet her there.
Blaine Neufeld [00:28:21]:
That's cool.
Kevin Thompson [00:28:21]:
And now you've removed the kids. Right. She's beginning to regulate in a better way. And now you all are functioning forward. That's a beautiful picture, I think, in which you communicated.
Adrienne Neufeld [00:28:33]:
Well, I could have communicated less aggressively.
Kevin Thompson [00:28:35]:
I wasn't going to go there. But you are.
Adrienne Neufeld [00:28:37]:
I see that.
Blaine Neufeld [00:28:38]:
I recognize that you already were communicating. And for me to pick up the breadcrumbs. Cause it took me a while too, of like, I'm just watching the stress happen and not even assessing. I'm like, oh, I wonder why she's so stressed.
Adrienne Neufeld [00:28:51]:
I had like five things on my brain. Like, we're doing the podcast. I gotta get ready. I want the birthday to party. I gotta get lunches. Like, it was just so many things.
Blaine Neufeld [00:28:59]:
In a shorter month. But she was, like, fairly overwhelmed. And then I clued in.
Kevin Thompson [00:29:02]:
Yeah.
Blaine Neufeld [00:29:02]:
And it took me a while. I thought about it. Maybe I should just remove the case.
Kevin Thompson [00:29:06]:
Maybe just.
Adrienne Neufeld [00:29:07]:
I think you folded the water bottles and then you removed the case.
Blaine Neufeld [00:29:09]:
Oh, yeah, I did that.
Adrienne Neufeld [00:29:10]:
Cause you were like, okay, what can I do? And sometimes that. That's not helpful, though.
Kevin Thompson [00:29:14]:
Yeah.
Adrienne Neufeld [00:29:15]:
Because it's another thing I have to do. So I'm scrambled in my brain. And now you're asking. I mean, I was able to verbalize.
Blaine Neufeld [00:29:22]:
That, but it takes a big step for someone to verbalize it and say it. Actually, treat me as a child almost at the point. And then I'm like, oh, I can help.
Kevin Thompson [00:29:30]:
Let's look at two things there. First of all, the idea of the question, what do you want me to do? How that adds. Here's a better way to approach that instead of what do you want me to do? Because that can add another thing to your spouse's list of what they have to process through. Here's what I'm going to do. Unless you want me to do something different.
Adrienne Neufeld [00:29:47]:
Yeah, that's nice.
Kevin Thompson [00:29:48]:
So notice the difference there. Because then if you don't want to deal with it, you don't even have to respond. No, he can just do what he's going to do. But if there is something that you have in mind, it gives you space now to be a part of the actual solution to Say what's going on. Another thing, Adrian, I think let's go back with your temperament, right. Agency, dyadic, right. Enneagram 9. The temptation for you is going to be for your sanity, of peace, to not assertively communicate what you actually need in the moment.
Kevin Thompson [00:30:19]:
And now for you to lean in. This is a moment where now you need to lean into your agency, but not dyadic, your agency outward. You need to lean into this eight a little bit more, which you have modeled for you perfectly in your own home, and lean into that. And literally, what would Blaine say here? Well, Blaine would communicate what he needs. So let me communicate that instead of allowing it and it's all gonna happen to all of us, but instead of allowing it to slip out almost like a jab, just assertiveness. Not aggressive, not passive aggressive. You're gonna lean more toward passive aggressive, expecting him to read through it, an area of growth for you. Now Blaine can learn to read the room faster.
Kevin Thompson [00:31:02]:
You can learn to communicate assertively sooner. And if both of you work on that, you're actually helping each other in what's going on.
Blaine Neufeld [00:31:11]:
And I'm seeing you talk about the childhood, you know, and your upbringing and how this does affect it. I sat at that table as my mom did everything. There was no part of my childhood upbringing that I felt the need to jump in and help and figure out and try to clue into what's needed. I'm just sitting there and I'm just seeing how hunky dory, hunky dory here for the fun. Right.
Adrienne Neufeld [00:31:32]:
It's interesting in you as like a fourth child, you probably had a lot of stuff done for you.
Kevin Thompson [00:31:37]:
Yeah.
Adrienne Neufeld [00:31:38]:
Sometimes I still feel like I'm married to that fourth child, you know, and.
Blaine Neufeld [00:31:41]:
That'S where I'm trying.
Adrienne Neufeld [00:31:42]:
I'm trying to call him up, and sometimes I could call him up in a more graceful, gracious way.
Kevin Thompson [00:31:47]:
But, yeah, you're both growing. And here we are 13 years. How many years? 14. Oh, yeah, we just had our 14. Yeah.
Blaine Neufeld [00:31:55]:
The whole year.
Kevin Thompson [00:31:56]:
Imagine what it's going to be at 25.
Blaine Neufeld [00:31:58]:
Oh, my God.
Kevin Thompson [00:31:59]:
If you keep on heading this direction. Let's look at a couple things parenting wise for a second. Kids naturally have a smaller window of tolerance. They're growing, they're developing. I mean, think about the tantrum. Right? Think about. I think one thing parents can do, though, I think, is it's easy for us in our kids to recognize hyper arousal. We don't always recognize hypoarousal in our kids.
Adrienne Neufeld [00:32:22]:
Interesting.
Kevin Thompson [00:32:23]:
Because silence shutdown we kind of like.
Adrienne Neufeld [00:32:27]:
Yeah, like, oh, why run a good thing? You're suffering, but it's quiet.
Kevin Thompson [00:32:32]:
But to begin to recognize. And then when your child is very quiet, maybe sad, maybe emotionally cut off, it's not just, hey, what's wrong? Instead, maybe it is you just go sit by them, kind of put your arm around them and give them space. Not give them space, but give them your space. Now, a physical kind of presence that's there if we're not very careful, that verbal questioning can actually cause a fear further response of what's already there. Again, let's think about regulating the nervous system more rather than trying to logic them into a better place. And I think one thing that we as parents tend to get wrong is we tend to use our words far too often and not all the other tools that we have accessible to us. And so your teenager comes in, they're really agitated. What's wrong? Okay, there's a space for that maybe.
Kevin Thompson [00:33:30]:
But what if you just got up and went over and just started like cooking something? Just. Teenagers tend to be hungry, right? And we're gonna call or, hey, I'm gonna get some ice cream. You want some ice cream? You know, here's a cup of coffee. And maybe there is this with especially little kids, just this idea, just, man, wrap them up and give it a little bit of space. And then maybe it comes, hey, you seem sad while ago. Anything you want to talk about? And so words. What if the words came last instead of first?
Blaine Neufeld [00:34:04]:
Yes. So she's very like one of our children. I think I'm very like one of our other children, our middle child. And this emotional need that she has, when she gets hurt, she will literally not say a word. And she will go to the quiet corner and cry and cry. And just being beside her or holding her lets her get there again. And I know that if I'm thinking about my adult self, of sad, loneliness, depression, it's very scary for me. And so to have someone I trust in that space actually brings me out of it.
Blaine Neufeld [00:34:38]:
And now I've discovered how Jesus can fulfill that hole, more so in the last year than ever. But at the same time, I'm her dad. I'm father figure. Like, this is what a powerful tool of literally sitting there and hugging her. And I hugged her this morning before she kind of woke up. And I just. She's just smiling. She was just happy.
Blaine Neufeld [00:34:57]:
I'm like, I noticed how much, how important that is to someone. And I'm like, I want to do.
Adrienne Neufeld [00:35:02]:
That again, especially to A daughter. Oh, gosh, whatever.
Blaine Neufeld [00:35:06]:
No, no, no.
Adrienne Neufeld [00:35:07]:
We're not giving it away.
Kevin Thompson [00:35:10]:
It does make you wonder what would happen, especially when our kids are elementary school and younger, big time. What would happen if we cut our words in half and our physical touches, we doubled them. So if we doubled our hugs and cut our nose in half, what would happen? So let's say you see your child crying. Test this out if you're listening. You see your child crying. Instead of saying, what's wrong? Go over and hug them until they start talking.
Adrienne Neufeld [00:35:39]:
Oh, that's so hard. It's just like such a habit to be like, what's wrong?
Kevin Thompson [00:35:44]:
What happened? No doubt because we want to solve it. We don't want them to suffer in any way. But notice what's happening is even if we solve the issue in the moment, we have not taught them in the long run how to deal with those negative emotions. But if we go and we sit with them in the midst of their emotions, we may not solve that issue immediately. But we've taught them for the long run of, hey, you're going to be okay. Here's how you bring your body back. These kind of things happen. There's such potential.
Kevin Thompson [00:36:11]:
And I get parenting. There's too many demands for us to process.
Adrienne Neufeld [00:36:15]:
I know it's overwhelming.
Kevin Thompson [00:36:16]:
Don't allow this to be another guilt thing that's on you, but instead, test it, try it and see what that's actually like. And then another thing that we can consider, especially parenting, but even each other. What if we worked harder at keeping each other in the window of tolerance?
Adrienne Neufeld [00:36:30]:
That would affect your ripple effects.
Kevin Thompson [00:36:33]:
Yeah, it's one thing to co reg to regulate once people are outside of it. But what if we see, hey, what do we need to actually stay in it, in the midst of it? And so that's where seriously, we joke about it. But all the kind, compassionate, loving touches, thoughtful words, breathing, all those things for ourselves and for others. So let's look at how do we individually, it's one thing to regulate with each other, but we can't put all this on our spouse. It's not our spouse's job to regulate us. They can partner with us, but ultimately it's us. So what are the things that we can do? One is to be aware of your own body. Recognize.
Kevin Thompson [00:37:13]:
Is my heart racing a little bit more? Is my stress level? Is my tone getting sharper? Am I starting to shut down? I see this with me. It's a very interesting thing. I haven't fully come to terms with it of what Exactly. Is going on. There are times in which, if we're going on a trip, that, as I'm driving, I will get extremely sleepy, Very low energy at the very initial phase of what that trip is. And it's almost like my body is conserving energy for what is about to come because I don't like change. And I'm trying to process all the new stuff that's coming up. So it's a very interesting kind of thing there that I'm recognizing within myself.
Kevin Thompson [00:37:55]:
And then. All right, how do I kind of snap out of that? Right. So awareness of your own body, I think, is very important. Here's one thing that we greatly underestimate is our own breathing. So to intentionally take in a deep breath through the nose, primarily to exhale through the mouth, to exhale longer than we inhale.
Adrienne Neufeld [00:38:17]:
Wait, say that again. Exhale longer than we inhale.
Kevin Thompson [00:38:21]:
So let's say you're going to inhale for four seconds, exhale for five. I'd go slower.
Blaine Neufeld [00:38:27]:
You're hyperventilating now.
Adrienne Neufeld [00:38:29]:
Am I doing it right?
Kevin Thompson [00:38:30]:
This is not literally this morning.
Adrienne Neufeld [00:38:31]:
I know.
Kevin Thompson [00:38:34]:
So this is this idea of, seriously, let's do it right now just for our listener. Right? So we're going to go through the nose for a count of five, Right?
Adrienne Neufeld [00:38:42]:
Oh, my, I'm dizzy already.
Kevin Thompson [00:38:45]:
This is excellent radio right now, Right? And then you're going to press the breath out, even kind of through pursed lips, out in that way. And so what happens is longer. Just do it a beat longer. And you can do a shorter inhale if you want to, and then to work your way up to a longer exhale. Here's what tends to happen. Whenever you inhale shorter than you exhale, the body is learning to calm, because, let's face it, that is what happens after an event, after stress. As you get to that point, think about the sigh, right? That's the body trying to calm itself in some way. So if we can intentionally begin to breathe, if we can train ourselves when our kids are getting more and more agitated, can I become more focused on my breathing to not allow it to speed up? Now, there are times in which it's going to speed up, but when you and I are stressed, our breathing speeds up, and it tells our body to get ready for action.
Kevin Thompson [00:39:46]:
If we intentionally slow our breathing down, our body will actually follow, and that will bring us into this more settled state to some extent. Now, it could be if you tend toward hypo arousal, it could be, I need to actually engage more. I need to get A little bit more energy of what's actually taking place. We've already talked about, Adrian. You brought it up brilliantly earlier. Just these basic healthy habits of sleep, of eat, of exercise, prayer in the word on a regular, these spiritual rhythms.
Adrienne Neufeld [00:40:19]:
That's huge.
Kevin Thompson [00:40:20]:
All those things can bring us back into this window. Another thing is to name out loud what emotions we're feeling.
Adrienne Neufeld [00:40:28]:
I've started doing that really well, right?
Blaine Neufeld [00:40:30]:
Oh, yeah.
Kevin Thompson [00:40:30]:
So Siegel's idea of name it to tame it, that whenever you say it, suddenly it begins to lose some of its power.
Blaine Neufeld [00:40:37]:
Yeah.
Adrienne Neufeld [00:40:38]:
Is it okay to do that in front of your kids? Because I'll be like, I am overwhelmed. Or I am feeling. Mommy's feeling stressed. Like, is that.
Kevin Thompson [00:40:45]:
No, I think so. Absolutely. I think so. You never want to do it in a way that now it's putting the expectation upon them to calm you in some way or something like that.
Blaine Neufeld [00:40:52]:
Yeah.
Adrienne Neufeld [00:40:53]:
I do sense our kids feel that sometimes it's like I want to help you feel better.
Kevin Thompson [00:40:59]:
And you can look at the different. The different kids personalities and temperaments. And to begin to learn who can I just easily say this around and they're gonna be okay. In other words, who's more like dad.
Adrienne Neufeld [00:41:08]:
And who's gonna take it on? Yeah.
Kevin Thompson [00:41:11]:
And then who's gonna take it on? Okay. With them. Then I'm gonna give more information. So they tend to take it on. You know, mommy's feeling really stressed right now. That's in no way your responsibility. Here's what I have to do. Whenever I feel stressed, I need to.
Adrienne Neufeld [00:41:25]:
Do these things or this is why. And it's not because of you, but it's like, I need to do all these things.
Blaine Neufeld [00:41:29]:
And how about this? Now I'm analyzing my entire life. I would have taken on a lot of people's stresses.
Adrienne Neufeld [00:41:35]:
Yeah.
Blaine Neufeld [00:41:36]:
And I feel like I'm supposed to solve their problems for them. Right. I'm supposed to figure out their stress. I'm a fixer. I feel like I need to be needed. I need to be wanted. Right. And I've kind of released that now almost in my own self discovery.
Blaine Neufeld [00:41:48]:
But I'm thinking about our middle child where it's like she would take on the weight of the world for other people. And I think she also needs to learn how to release it. You know what I'm saying? Like, there's an element where we gotta be careful with not just dumping because she would just take it all in. She feels so much for that person. And as a child, you don't know. I'm Just discovering it now, right. Of like, oh, it's not actually my fix. But to give verbalize that for a child at this age is like, oh my gosh, you also bring me so much joy.
Blaine Neufeld [00:42:20]:
So and so because of who you are and what you do, like, you know, elevate their gifts really is what we're doing. That is super cool.
Adrienne Neufeld [00:42:27]:
I have a question. Might be off topic, but is there a sense of like an unhealthy. Like I'm more thinking in a marriage where someone's trying to be a thermostat too much. It's almost like they're walking on eggshells just to keep that person in there because they don't know what's going to happen if they get out of the window.
Kevin Thompson [00:42:46]:
Where it becomes unhealthy is when it's not a reciprocal relationship, it becomes a one sided relationship because let's face it, what's happening there, you do not expect your kids to regulate you.
Adrienne Neufeld [00:42:59]:
No.
Kevin Thompson [00:42:59]:
It's not their job.
Adrienne Neufeld [00:43:00]:
No.
Kevin Thompson [00:43:01]:
You expect you to regulate yourself and you expect you to help them regulate. So when one spouse is always trying to regulate the other, but they are not co regulating that relationship has become a parent child relationship in that area.
Adrienne Neufeld [00:43:15]:
And that person's gonna burn out and just like get. They can't sustain it.
Kevin Thompson [00:43:19]:
No, no. And it's just unhealthy. I mean, I talk about this as friends, partners and lovers. That one of the great dangers is when a relationship that's supposed to be adult to adult becomes parent to child. That's the sign of dysfunction and unhealthiness. And so the way that stops is in part, if I'm the one always trying to regulate, I stop doing that. I start allowing them to have their own emotions. I was talking to somebody the other day and this is a temperament.
Adrienne Neufeld [00:43:46]:
It's like enabling. Right.
Kevin Thompson [00:43:47]:
Of what's going on. They could be. Adrian, if you were an unhealthy nun, you're not. But if you were in an unhealthy area as agency dyadic, as a nine. Right. Blaine could walk in every day and he could be trying to change your mood to get it to where it's more acceptable and those kind of things. Instead, what he needs to do is walk in and meet you where you actually are.
Blaine Neufeld [00:44:08]:
The first is the first three years of our marriage. Just so you know, like me coming in, I'm gonna fix this. No, I know what you need to do. And then the last five is. Or whatever. You know what I'm saying?
Kevin Thompson [00:44:18]:
Yeah, well, that's longer than that, but yeah, fascinating math. I don't know what happened to the other six.
Blaine Neufeld [00:44:22]:
We've been married for eight years.
Kevin Thompson [00:44:25]:
Is.
Blaine Neufeld [00:44:25]:
I'm gonna let her, I'm gonna let her do it.
Kevin Thompson [00:44:27]:
Yes.
Blaine Neufeld [00:44:27]:
And I'm gonna actually be there to support the process, not fix the process.
Adrienne Neufeld [00:44:31]:
What if you see that in another couple and you can see that they're trying to con continually, like just regulate the environment so their spouse doesn't freak out. How do you approach. Is it your job to tell them.
Kevin Thompson [00:44:45]:
Like you send them a link to change the odds of the podcast available on Apple and Spotify?
Adrienne Neufeld [00:44:49]:
Because you see it, right? And you're like, this isn't your job.
Kevin Thompson [00:44:53]:
Like, you know, you have to be invited into it. If they invite you into it, then you can give your observations. But if not, it just generally doesn't work to step in. I mean, hey, all the time, I'm sitting in the airport all the time and I want to like have a card of, you know, it just says stay in your lane. Hey, if you don't mind, I can. I'm listening to Yalls relationship right now and this is not going to work in any way whatsoever. If I want to save y'. All.
Kevin Thompson [00:45:17]:
You are doing, hey, can I give a 60 second free thing here? But I'm like, what good is that gonna do? Right? And so you just stand back and then when invited in, I think you have the opportunity. All right, let's review. We're out of time here. Let's review a couple things. So a few things. So the window of tolerance now, this optimal zone of where energy is, then notice this. This is where the best moments in your marriage happen.
Blaine Neufeld [00:45:40]:
Absolutely.
Kevin Thompson [00:45:41]:
The more time you can spend in this zone, you can solve problems, you can appreciate each other, you can be vulnerable with each other. You are engaged and yet not overwhelming. It's where we step out outside of that window into the energy's too high or the energy is too low that dangerous things begin to happen. We're all going to step outside of those windows, but when we do, let's regulate each other back into the center and then solve the actual issue. Do not try to solve problems when you're dysregulated. That people who are flooded, flooded brains can't solve problems. Right. You can't connect when you're dysregulated.
Kevin Thompson [00:46:19]:
So we have to be focused on that whenever you are outside of that window. Don't fight for control, fight for calm. Use your energy now not to be right or possess everything but instead to create a calming climate to where then you can actually solve the problems that are there. And then I think the big takeaway, probably for this episode, is in a mutual way now. Be the thermostat, not the thermometer, in order to change.
Blaine Neufeld [00:46:49]:
So good, Kev.
Adrienne Neufeld [00:46:50]:
Yeah.
Kevin Thompson [00:46:50]:
Window tolerance. There we go.
Blaine Neufeld [00:46:52]:
I feel better.
Adrienne Neufeld [00:46:53]:
Me too. I feel like I'm in my window perfectly.
Blaine Neufeld [00:46:56]:
Yeah.
Kevin Thompson [00:46:56]:
Oh, wow.
Blaine Neufeld [00:46:57]:
Now we can fight.
Kevin Thompson [00:46:58]:
Oh. Whoa. At that point, this episode's over. Thank you. Hey, thanks for joining us. We'll see you next time.