Adrienne Neufeld [00:00:00]:
Okay, let me ask you a question. Have you ever been mad about something small but you knew it wasn't small? Like it's not the time or the text. It's not even about being late. It was the feeling that you weren't important enough to plan for. He thinks he's being a hero by staying late to provide. She thinks he's being a ghost by disappearing when she needs him most. Today we're looking at provider versus the protector and. And how their best intentions are actually tearing them apart.
Kevin Thompson [00:00:29]:
There we go.
Blaine Neufeld [00:00:29]:
There we go.
Adrienne Neufeld [00:00:30]:
Hey.
Kevin Thompson [00:00:30]:
Welcome to change the odds, everybody. We're marriage and family. We're never meant to be. A game. A chance. Blaine and Adrienne, we are back.
Adrienne Neufeld [00:00:35]:
Hello.
Kevin Thompson [00:00:35]:
Happy 2026. Here we are.
Blaine Neufeld [00:00:38]:
How you doing? You feeling good?
Kevin Thompson [00:00:39]:
I'm good, yeah. You look great. You look so. Adrienne.
Blaine Neufeld [00:00:43]:
You look great, Adrienne.
Kevin Thompson [00:00:46]:
Adrienne's acting like it's 47° in the studio. You know what?
Blaine Neufeld [00:00:49]:
Canadian Grill.
Kevin Thompson [00:00:50]:
Because it is 47 degrees in the studio.
Blaine Neufeld [00:00:53]:
So cold.
Kevin Thompson [00:00:54]:
I'm wide awake and feel great.
Blaine Neufeld [00:00:55]:
And for our Canadian listeners, cuz I want be seen too. 47 minus 30. 17 divided by 2 is about 6, 8. Oh, so it's 8 and a half degrees in here.
Kevin Thompson [00:01:05]:
Okay. I don't even. I don't even know what. What just happened.
Adrienne Neufeld [00:01:08]:
They're like, it's minus 40 credit.
Blaine Neufeld [00:01:11]:
Thank you.
Kevin Thompson [00:01:12]:
We do have a good number of Canadians.
Blaine Neufeld [00:01:13]:
Let's go. Listen, we love you guys. Yeah.
Kevin Thompson [00:01:16]:
So hey.
Blaine Neufeld [00:01:18]:
Okay, what do we got? All right.
Kevin Thompson [00:01:19]:
So hey, today. So we have at what I think is going to be a very typical fight. Have you all ever fought over one supposed to be home and the other one's not?
Adrienne Neufeld [00:01:26]:
Oh, so many times.
Blaine Neufeld [00:01:28]:
Yeah, our core fight.
Adrienne Neufeld [00:01:29]:
That used to be our.
Kevin Thompson [00:01:31]:
That was it. Oh, we could have just done yalls fight. Have to have somebody.
Blaine Neufeld [00:01:34]:
I thought you did, Kev. I thought you did.
Kevin Thompson [00:01:37]:
So it was. Was it primarily Blaine who wasn't there?
Adrienne Neufeld [00:01:39]:
Well, yeah.
Kevin Thompson [00:01:40]:
Okay.
Adrienne Neufeld [00:01:40]:
I'm stuck at home all the time. I mean, I get to be at home with the kids. I love it.
Blaine Neufeld [00:01:46]:
Yeah, but even back up before kids, this still was. Still was the main thing.
Adrienne Neufeld [00:01:49]:
I think it's a you problem.
Kevin Thompson [00:01:51]:
Oh, wow. How about that?
Blaine Neufeld [00:01:54]:
I'm willing to grow, guys.
Kevin Thompson [00:01:55]:
So was it work or was it golf? Because these are two different fights.
Blaine Neufeld [00:01:58]:
Sorry, what?
Adrienne Neufeld [00:01:59]:
Both? Both.
Kevin Thompson [00:02:00]:
Okay. I think she is emphatic. So we have two different fights. So the play fight. I'm playing golf. I'm out with friends. That's a whole different fight than what we have today. So today we have the work fight.
Kevin Thompson [00:02:15]:
Because here's the difference. I think with the golf fight that might hypothetically happen on occasion, the man isn't going to feel as justified with what's going on. Today's fight is gonna be different, totally in that he feels like he's doing exactly what he's supposed to be doing, and then she's gonna be somewhat frustrated by what's taking place. And that creates a whole different dynamic, apart from, you know, you're out with your friends and those kind of things. And this is maybe with y', all, it's primarily, he's gone, and you're at home because of kids. For many couples, it is. She's out with friends, he's home, or you have. I mean, this was us where I was actually home because I had more flexible schedule being with church.
Kevin Thompson [00:02:55]:
I would pick up the kids, I would get home. Jenny would have to work late. So now it's Jenny that's coming in late, and I'm home. So the gender switch could happen there in some way. All right, Blaine, you want to read the fight that we got texted into us? So go to changetheodds.com or Instagram. You can text in what your fight is. We'd love to break it down here on the show.
Blaine Neufeld [00:03:16]:
I just don't think it was golf as much as you guys think it was golf. Fights. Okay.
Adrienne Neufeld [00:03:21]:
It's definitely been both.
Kevin Thompson [00:03:22]:
Maybe we could have a fight right now.
Blaine Neufeld [00:03:24]:
I don't remember at the start it being golf.
Adrienne Neufeld [00:03:27]:
Okay. At the start, it was work, and then it progressed to golf.
Blaine Neufeld [00:03:29]:
Okay.
Kevin Thompson [00:03:29]:
Okay. But. So this is the first fight. Work is the first fight. That's where we're going to go. And then maybe down the road, we can. One of you can hypothetically text in to change the.
Blaine Neufeld [00:03:39]:
She would come golfing with me. Okay, here we go. The fight. Hey, fight club. My husband Mark said he'd be home.
Kevin Thompson [00:03:46]:
We're using names. Okay, let's. All right, let's not use that name again. Although it's a common name.
Blaine Neufeld [00:03:50]:
It is a common name. We don't know who this guy is. Hey, fight club. My husband Mark said he'd be home by.
Kevin Thompson [00:03:57]:
Oh.
Blaine Neufeld [00:03:58]:
My husband said he'd be home by six. Dinner was ready. The kids were asking. Six came and went. Where is daddy? No text, no call. When he finally walked in, he didn't even look at me. He heads straight for the mail on the counter. That's when I snapped.
Blaine Neufeld [00:04:14]:
It wasn't just the lateness. It was the casual ness of it all. I told him I felt invisible, like his. Like his job mattered more than his family. He got defensive immediately and said, I'm working hard for us. Then he shut down. I ended up crying. He ended up silent.
Blaine Neufeld [00:04:31]:
I'm an enneagram 6. Anxious, attachment style. He is a 3 and leans avoidant. Help us, because this keeps happening.
Kevin Thompson [00:04:41]:
Oh, there we go.
Blaine Neufeld [00:04:42]:
This is nice. He got a little detail in there.
Kevin Thompson [00:04:43]:
I like it. Hey, you go to change the odds now. You can take your love style. You can take your lead style. And then we have more information to play with.
Blaine Neufeld [00:04:49]:
We go online and we take a little test.
Kevin Thompson [00:04:52]:
Two assessments.
Blaine Neufeld [00:04:53]:
Two assessments. And I Finn figure out what number I am.
Adrienne Neufeld [00:04:56]:
You Finn figure it out.
Kevin Thompson [00:04:57]:
We Finn figure out the number.
Blaine Neufeld [00:04:58]:
We have hit a nerve over there, Kevin.
Kevin Thompson [00:05:00]:
I like it.
Blaine Neufeld [00:05:01]:
This will be spicy.
Kevin Thompson [00:05:02]:
This is gonna be a hot episode today. She's cold and a little frustrated.
Adrienne Neufeld [00:05:06]:
I've been warming.
Kevin Thompson [00:05:09]:
All right, so here's the thing, though. They actually didn't have to tell us their attachment style. Although I'm glad that they did, because. All right, look at the fight, the two of you. Do you see? What are the hot words that show us what their attachment style actually is? So you go to.
Adrienne Neufeld [00:05:25]:
Well, he's silent.
Kevin Thompson [00:05:27]:
Silent, yes. The shutdown will now tell you the avoidant side of what's going on. What shows her attachments to. So she said one word in there.
Blaine Neufeld [00:05:37]:
I read it.
Kevin Thompson [00:05:38]:
She snapped.
Blaine Neufeld [00:05:39]:
Oh, she snapped.
Kevin Thompson [00:05:40]:
Okay.
Blaine Neufeld [00:05:41]:
That's familiar.
Kevin Thompson [00:05:42]:
That's anxious. Oh, that's anxious. The snap is gonna be an anxious because what's happening is the tension is so much that I need you to see me and you're not seeing me. And so if you're not seeing me at this level, then I'm gonna take it to another level so that you'll see me.
Adrienne Neufeld [00:05:59]:
We've literally had this exact argument in a restaurant.
Blaine Neufeld [00:06:03]:
Where. Do you remember which one?
Adrienne Neufeld [00:06:05]:
I ran into the bathroom crying, and then you followed me and you in there. And then this gentleman's like, are you okay, ma'? Am? Like, what? We, like, started worrying.
Kevin Thompson [00:06:16]:
It's actually his safety you need to be worried about right now.
Adrienne Neufeld [00:06:19]:
Yeah. But anyways. Yeah.
Blaine Neufeld [00:06:21]:
What restaurant?
Adrienne Neufeld [00:06:22]:
Oh, I don't know, but I was like, you keep choosing work over me. I can't do that.
Blaine Neufeld [00:06:26]:
This is back.
Adrienne Neufeld [00:06:27]:
Back in bc.
Blaine Neufeld [00:06:28]:
Oh, I'm so sorry.
Adrienne Neufeld [00:06:29]:
In Vancouver.
Kevin Thompson [00:06:29]:
So. Man. So look at that.
Adrienne Neufeld [00:06:31]:
But.
Kevin Thompson [00:06:31]:
But I love the idea of so the. Think about. Go back to love styles.
Blaine Neufeld [00:06:35]:
Right?
Kevin Thompson [00:06:35]:
We do the table illustration. What's going on below the table for her. She feels unseen, unheard, and valued, unloved. He's not seeing it. Right. So she raises a protest, a pointed finger of protest. And that always elevates beyond even the issue, because what's going on inside is so much more painful than what the actual issue is.
Adrienne Neufeld [00:06:54]:
So big.
Kevin Thompson [00:06:55]:
So you ratchet up the emotion. So somebody with anxious attachment is going to ratchet up the emotion to match what they're feeling inside. Right. So she's snapping. His avoidant attachment is. I don't want any part of this conflict. Right. So to protect myself and also to protect you, I'm afraid of what I might do, say the wrong thing, whatever.
Kevin Thompson [00:07:14]:
So I'm just going to emotionally shut down, which think about what that does. When he shuts down, it's going to irritate her even more, because the shutdown now makes her feel even more unseen, unheard, unvalued, unlucky. So what does she do then? She elevates it even higher. And then the fight can be on in many ways. So let's kind of break down. So that's the attachment issue of what's going on. That's their love style. Let's break down their lead style.
Kevin Thompson [00:07:41]:
So she said that she is. Yeah, she's the Enneagram 6. Right. So think about Enneagram 6. So that's me. So it's going to be certainty, wants predictability, and then have a dyadic viewpoint. So she sees herself. She sees him all at the same time.
Kevin Thompson [00:08:00]:
So think about this. If I desperately need predictability, how did he violate that?
Adrienne Neufeld [00:08:05]:
He gave you none.
Blaine Neufeld [00:08:06]:
The late.
Kevin Thompson [00:08:07]:
The late. Yeah, the late.
Blaine Neufeld [00:08:09]:
No text, no call.
Kevin Thompson [00:08:10]:
This is going to be a bigger issue for her. It would be an issue for anybody. This is going to be a bigger issue for her because where's the predictability now? I don't know what I can trust and what I can't trust. And think about it. In enneagram 6, we can talk about the shadow side in just a minute. But she's always going to be a little bit uncertain of are you going to love me or not? And so she's always testing. That's the negative side of what's going on. That's the negative side of who I am.
Kevin Thompson [00:08:36]:
Always testing. Are you faithful or not? And so this is going to trigger that now in some way. So he's coming at it from a three. So a bonding dyadic. So relationship first and then dyadic. So they're both gonna have a very similar viewpoint. How they attend to the world is what Siegel talks about. So think about 3, 6 and 9.
Kevin Thompson [00:08:55]:
There's a little triad there of 3, 6 and 9 that they all attend to the world the same way. This diet. Adrienne, you have this, right? I have this. Blaine, you don't have a clue what this is. So it's this viewpoint of they always see themselves and see others at the same time. There's a lot of strength to it. But the downside is they can never fully see themselves and they can never fully see somebody else. They're always interpreting both at the exact same time.
Kevin Thompson [00:09:19]:
So a lot of strengths to that. But there's some real downsides to what's happening here. So let's look at. So what do we do? How do we break down these fights? Right? We get the love style, we get the lead style. Then we want to look at what's the power couple here? What's the superpowers of this unique kind of combination. So think about now. He being a three brings the momentum, the excitement, leadership. Right.
Kevin Thompson [00:09:46]:
Achievement. Three. Many think people call three an achiever. And then she's the loyalist. So she's bringing the foresight, a lot of emotional intelligence.
Adrienne Neufeld [00:09:55]:
Six is a loyalist.
Kevin Thompson [00:09:56]:
Six is a loyalist.
Adrienne Neufeld [00:09:57]:
Yeah, I do lean six.
Blaine Neufeld [00:09:59]:
Oh, baby.
Kevin Thompson [00:10:00]:
Well. And so three, nine and six are going to look a lot the same. Matter of fact, like Ian Crone in his book the Road Back to youo, he's going to talk about the. And some people with the Enneagram do this where you go in times of stress and where you go like a healthy.
Blaine Neufeld [00:10:13]:
Yeah.
Kevin Thompson [00:10:14]:
So I don't remember where a nine goes, but it's going to be the three and the six.
Adrienne Neufeld [00:10:18]:
Yeah.
Kevin Thompson [00:10:18]:
So for a six, when I'm unhealthy, I look more like a three. I become much more achiever, oriented. I'm trying to earn my value. When I'm healthy, I'm much more of a nine peacemaker. Everything is great. I don't remember where the dynamic is for, but it's going to be one you go this way and one you go that way. I don't remember what it is. So for her, but notice together they have this tremendous superpowers of where they can really move forward.
Kevin Thompson [00:10:45]:
They can achieve great things. This family can be really safe. But there is the downside. So once we get the superpowers, then we get the shadow sides. Right. So what are their personalities and what's taking place? And the downside of a family 3 now is think about it, it's bonding, dyadic. So what are they doing? They're trying to Achieve a relationship, trying to achieve worth and value. So basically, the only way you're going to love me is if I go do something.
Adrienne Neufeld [00:11:16]:
If I'm successful at work.
Kevin Thompson [00:11:17]:
Yes. Yes, that's exactly right. So think about this idea of. What was his line? I'm working hard for us. So that's a true statement, right? I mean, was it Meatloaf who said, everything I do, I do it for you? Who was it that sang that song?
Blaine Neufeld [00:11:35]:
I'm sorry.
Adrienne Neufeld [00:11:35]:
I don't know. I think I'm too young.
Blaine Neufeld [00:11:39]:
You sure look young.
Adrienne Neufeld [00:11:40]:
Thank you. I received that.
Kevin Thompson [00:11:43]:
He's trying to make up for it.
Blaine Neufeld [00:11:44]:
I love you.
Adrienne Neufeld [00:11:45]:
So he's not feeling seen either, though, because he thinks he's doing everything for the family, and you don't think it's good enough.
Kevin Thompson [00:11:53]:
Yeah, that's a great point. So as he walks in the door and he feels like, whether it's true or not, he feels like he's been sacrificing for her. And does he walk in and get that reception as though I've been sacrificing for you? No. Instead, he just gets this critique.
Blaine Neufeld [00:12:12]:
His day would matter so much at work, because this is somewhat relatable. So it's like, you have a great day. You get filled up. You feel like a million bucks.
Adrienne Neufeld [00:12:20]:
People are probably. You're doing such a good job at work.
Blaine Neufeld [00:12:23]:
Yeah. You go home, and if she's a little bit not giving you any of that, that's okay. I still have the tank kind of full, but then it kind of wears away. But the days that you don't get your tank full at work, and then you come home for a double down, and that doesn't happen. And it's just, you know, the ripple effect in a negative way where I can see how the positive effect could happen very quickly. And, you know, we're talking about healthy.
Adrienne Neufeld [00:12:47]:
But remember when we were having this issue, I was like, where are you? Why are you never home? You're choosing work over me? And then Donna, Remember Donna? Yeah.
Kevin Thompson [00:12:56]:
Remember?
Adrienne Neufeld [00:12:57]:
Donna was like. She says to me, why would he want to come home to someone doing that? You know, he's. He's getting like he's being respected at work. And then. Yeah.
Kevin Thompson [00:13:07]:
After Donna. That's great advice, by the way. Donna's great. Donna, by the way. I don't know if y' all noticed this.
Blaine Neufeld [00:13:12]:
We love Donna.
Adrienne Neufeld [00:13:13]:
And I was like, oh, I'm acting a little crazy.
Blaine Neufeld [00:13:15]:
Yeah. You saw that. Hey.
Adrienne Neufeld [00:13:17]:
Oh, yeah.
Blaine Neufeld [00:13:17]:
Okay.
Kevin Thompson [00:13:17]:
That's brilliant. That's an. It's an interesting and we don't need to already get the solution. But it is an interesting thing of. I'm not putting all the blame on her by any means.
Adrienne Neufeld [00:13:26]:
No, this is my issue.
Kevin Thompson [00:13:27]:
But her responsibility here. What if she began to be much more excited to have him come home? It would be intriguing to see. Does the time that he comes home start to shift a little bit earlier?
Blaine Neufeld [00:13:38]:
Yeah. Oh, big time. And it did. Absolutely it did. And it also helped me understand that it's still working on this part. Truthful texts nearing the end of the day. Because I'm trying to be hopeful and helpful. The truth is more important to say I'm coming home at 5:50.
Blaine Neufeld [00:13:55]:
Not I hope to get there at 5:30.
Adrienne Neufeld [00:13:57]:
But the no text from him. That is concerning.
Kevin Thompson [00:14:01]:
All right, so we've talked about what his shadow side is. He's accomplishing to get the relationship. Her shadow side now is an endless need of reassurance. So she's not going to feel comfortable. No matter how great the relationship is, she's still going to be uncertain. Matter of fact, a lot of people with an anxious attachment is when the relationship is great, they get even more nervous because they're like, oh, the other.
Adrienne Neufeld [00:14:23]:
Shit'S going to drop.
Kevin Thompson [00:14:24]:
I never have understood that statement, by the way. No, I was about to. What happened to the first shoe is my right.
Adrienne Neufeld [00:14:29]:
Where's the shoes?
Kevin Thompson [00:14:30]:
No, I was about. I was about to literally say the same thing the whole time you were saying. I'm like, I don't know what that means.
Adrienne Neufeld [00:14:34]:
Yeah, yeah, yeah, let's look into that. Let's have an episode about it.
Kevin Thompson [00:14:38]:
We're gonna come up with our own language.
Blaine Neufeld [00:14:39]:
Curious, though, because now I'm. I'm having empathy for a doctor or different professions.
Adrienne Neufeld [00:14:45]:
Very demanding schedule.
Blaine Neufeld [00:14:47]:
The stress at work.
Kevin Thompson [00:14:48]:
Yes.
Blaine Neufeld [00:14:48]:
Now, if she's needing the affirmation, well, I'm working on surgery here. I can't text you. Yes, we have. Oh, my God.
Adrienne Neufeld [00:14:55]:
We don't know what he does.
Blaine Neufeld [00:14:56]:
So much stress.
Kevin Thompson [00:14:58]:
We don't know. There does sound to be. Sounds to be some flexibility here where he has at least some say like a doctor, like that stuff you're on, when you're on, what do you do? And there has to be such compassion. And totally. And I think in all of our careers, no matter where we are, we have to figure out, all right, what's the. There's pros to the career, there's downsides to the career. Yeah. What's the downside? I think I'm a son of an accountant.
Kevin Thompson [00:15:20]:
Right. So you just knew From New Year's till April 15th, 18th.
Blaine Neufeld [00:15:25]:
He's busy.
Kevin Thompson [00:15:26]:
Like.
Adrienne Neufeld [00:15:26]:
Yeah.
Kevin Thompson [00:15:27]:
Dad is at the office before 6:00am he's home after six season. Yeah.
Blaine Neufeld [00:15:32]:
And so all day golfers, they have their weekend.
Kevin Thompson [00:15:36]:
Sure, right.
Adrienne Neufeld [00:15:36]:
If you're making money. Yeah, but some of us.
Kevin Thompson [00:15:39]:
Well, you haven't seen how good Blaine's playing lately. Actually, you might want to go investigate that golf bag. I bet you there's some cash.
Blaine Neufeld [00:15:48]:
Kevin, let's get back to the fight.
Kevin Thompson [00:15:51]:
So she's gonna need this reassurance. She's gonna feel unsafe. And, Adrienne, you bring up a great point. His lack of a text now really is a problem that he probably doesn't see what they can actually do the trigger. Oh, me too. Oh, yeah.
Adrienne Neufeld [00:16:05]:
Cause we're her.
Kevin Thompson [00:16:06]:
Yeah. No, we are.
Blaine Neufeld [00:16:07]:
Yes.
Kevin Thompson [00:16:08]:
Yes.
Adrienne Neufeld [00:16:08]:
We're, like, so angry for her.
Kevin Thompson [00:16:11]:
How hard is it to text me?
Adrienne Neufeld [00:16:13]:
You don't have to use your hands anymore.
Blaine Neufeld [00:16:18]:
Wow. Glad I'm here.
Adrienne Neufeld [00:16:22]:
You bring value. We don't know where I feel seen.
Blaine Neufeld [00:16:25]:
Question mark.
Kevin Thompson [00:16:26]:
Adrienne and I are so on this woman's side, it's not even funny. Right. So now we have the personalities that are going on. Right. Their attachment we've already talked about comes into it, right. His shutdown, his silence now triggers her. Her emotion triggers him. And so this is a very typical fight that we talk about in love styles now, where how they're both responding is trigger the other one.
Kevin Thompson [00:16:52]:
And neither one can see what's going on. Which, actually, even if they reconcile on this fight, they will already be set up for the next fight. Because when they reconcile, he'll think to himself, oh, okay, I finally appeased her. She'll think to herself, oh, we had this breakthrough, and the next fight is already set up. So these kings can really begin to build upon each other. Let's think about what would a secure attachment, how would that change it? Because you can grow in your personality. You can think about this. You don't have to be stuck in as a six.
Kevin Thompson [00:17:24]:
I don't have to just be a six. I can develop and grow. But the easier thing to change here is your attachment is you can go from an anxious attachment to a secure, from avoidant to a secure. So let's think about what would it look like if either one of them were secure in this relationship? What would happen here? It would empower them to begin to think outside of themselves.
Adrienne Neufeld [00:17:46]:
Right.
Kevin Thompson [00:17:47]:
And to think about the other.
Adrienne Neufeld [00:17:48]:
That was a big change for us. We both realized in these moments, we're just thinking of ourselves. Or I was you maybe were thinking of me more.
Blaine Neufeld [00:17:58]:
No, I wouldn't have seen your actual need. I would have said, well, don't you trust me? Like, I'm working hard to do this. I'm gonna come home.
Adrienne Neufeld [00:18:06]:
And I would have said, don't you see me? I'm alone here. I got. I don't know anyone. I have nothing.
Blaine Neufeld [00:18:12]:
And I would say, just hang in there, tiger. It's gonna get better. Right. Because that was. L. Living in a basement. This is going to be relatable for a lot of people. It's like we're living in a 400 square foot basement suite, newly married, trying to save up money so that we can have the thing which is the condo.
Blaine Neufeld [00:18:31]:
The next step, you know, we want to have a family. There's so many stresses in. And amongst this. My mindset is, let's go and make money and save money. And hers is, let's just be together. I moved away from a town, away from my family. All my security is gone. Every bit of it.
Adrienne Neufeld [00:18:46]:
Yeah. And we like to be secure and predictable.
Blaine Neufeld [00:18:50]:
As a six, she went on an adventure and it was horrible. Horrible.
Adrienne Neufeld [00:18:55]:
It was hard.
Blaine Neufeld [00:18:55]:
Hard. Horribly hard.
Adrienne Neufeld [00:18:57]:
Yeah. But I think I had to see, like, oh, he's working really hard for me. I had to get into his shoes.
Kevin Thompson [00:19:04]:
Yes. Before they dropped.
Adrienne Neufeld [00:19:05]:
Yes. And. And see, like, his perspective.
Blaine Neufeld [00:19:10]:
Yeah.
Adrienne Neufeld [00:19:10]:
So being less selfish, does that answer your question?
Kevin Thompson [00:19:14]:
No, I like it. So here's what secure attachment does, is it gives you the ability to safely think about the other person without fear of what's going to happen to you. And let's be honest here. Here's the deception, but then here's also the truth. We deceive ourselves into thinking if I think of him more than I think of myself, I'm going to get taken advantage of. Because we feel like that's what's happening right now. So it's going to get even worse. And so we become really defensive of ourselves.
Kevin Thompson [00:19:42]:
So again, one protests, one defends. But that actually drives us further into the negative feelings that we're having. If instead we have the ability to think of the other person first, lean into what they're doing, and that will actually invite them to begin to lean into what we're doing. And here's what secure attachment does, in my opinion, is it doesn't take away the conflict. It smooths the edges of it so all the sharpness goes away. Healthy couples still have conflict, but they don't have the daggers that are being thrown back and forth. They're not having to get so defensive, they're not having to protest so hard, and it just de escalates what's going on, which then allows them to actually change behaviors and actions. So let's think about that for both of them.
Kevin Thompson [00:20:28]:
What would it look like if whenever he walked in the door, instead of being dismissive, because let's face it, whenever the callousness of it in all likelihood is a protective mechanism, it's his avoidant attachment already starting to kick in. He knows the fight's coming, so he's already starting to step out of it. Right. What if instead he came in and he leaned into it? I am so sorry I didn't text you. I know that has to be hard for you. I should have. I'm going to own what I need to own, and that had to be frustrating for you. Now I'm going to identify your emotion and actually call it out of you to some extent.
Kevin Thompson [00:21:02]:
And that's what this does for her. Subconsciously, she's not going to recognize this. She feels like the emotion inside of her, she recognizes it doesn't quite match the situation that's at hand. And so she has to up the ante to show the emotion of what's going on to get him to see her. When he already sees her, it invites her to not have to do that. And so now she approaches it with a truthful concept, but not just so over the top emotional. So notice what that does for him. Her heightened emotion is going to scare him.
Kevin Thompson [00:21:36]:
So now that she's going to come at it less emotionally, well, now he's not as scared, so he's not as quick to run. He stays in it, which means she's more secure, so her emotion calms even more. And so next thing you know, they can meet. Right. Remember what we say in love styles. The problem with a pointed finger of protest and a raised fist of defense is you can't hold a hand with either one. Right.
Adrienne Neufeld [00:21:57]:
We say that.
Kevin Thompson [00:21:58]:
We do. We as a group say that, yes, y' all are getting out of the road, but we say that. So if we can begin to recognize, it's okay to say, here's my problem, but can we lower the emotion behind the protest and can we actually not defend and simply be here and actually ask for more?
Blaine Neufeld [00:22:21]:
Yeah, I'm interested because. And use us as the example here, because I think I'm fairly secure.
Adrienne Neufeld [00:22:27]:
You do this to me all the time, right?
Kevin Thompson [00:22:29]:
Like, does it irritate you?
Adrienne Neufeld [00:22:31]:
No, no, no.
Blaine Neufeld [00:22:31]:
It had. It had.
Adrienne Neufeld [00:22:33]:
Yes.
Kevin Thompson [00:22:33]:
Yeah, I get it.
Blaine Neufeld [00:22:34]:
Yeah.
Adrienne Neufeld [00:22:34]:
But now, like, you Said it kind of like, it puts me at ease a little bit. It softens whatever I'm feeling inside for me to be like, okay, thank you. I just wish you would maybe have done it this way because that would have helped me with the kids and, and not. And then like, so we can communicate what we're feeling and why The. The feeling behind the reaction.
Blaine Neufeld [00:22:57]:
Because I'm curious of. I felt. I feel like I'm pretty. There's. There's anxious attachments in me, I'm sure with different things, but with this, I feel secure. Right? Therefore I'm saying the things. What do you. How do you stop it from being just a punching bag, though, you know what I'm saying? Where it's like, it's okay, my fault.
Blaine Neufeld [00:23:17]:
It's okay, calm down, calm down. No, it's your fault. It's your fault. Because she has now become secure in actually saying those words of, well, no, I just need you to. I'm stressed out because the kitchen. That is it. That's the only.
Kevin Thompson [00:23:30]:
Oh, really?
Blaine Neufeld [00:23:31]:
The kitchen. I had no idea. I'll go and clean the kitchen. But it's like, no, you need to know. You need to know what's wrong with this. And you know what I'm saying?
Kevin Thompson [00:23:39]:
No, I think that's a great point. And even as y' all were kind of role playing that out just a little bit there, one of my thoughts was, that is very good, very healthy. As long as it's genuine.
Blaine Neufeld [00:23:47]:
Right?
Kevin Thompson [00:23:48]:
Because here's what could happen is somebody with an avoidant attachment could actually kind of play that role and still stay emotionally detached.
Blaine Neufeld [00:23:57]:
Well, what I was about to say was, if he says, I will, I'm so sorry for not texting you. You better text her next time. Otherwise the words mean absolutely nothing. And then you become a liar and it's over. It's over. There's no trust. So someone has an anxious attachment, suddenly double downs on no trust.
Kevin Thompson [00:24:13]:
Yes.
Blaine Neufeld [00:24:14]:
This man's words are nothing.
Kevin Thompson [00:24:15]:
No, that's that. And especially, Especially a six with an anxious attachment, which now, I mean, this is me completely. Well, now I can't trust a single thing you said.
Blaine Neufeld [00:24:24]:
No.
Kevin Thompson [00:24:24]:
So I. I need reassurance. And now you've lied to me, which means I need even more reassurance. So I can clearly say. I can clearly see somebody coming in and actually trying to manage their spouse's emotions so they stay emotionally detached. So that's the danger.
Adrienne Neufeld [00:24:38]:
The thermometer versus the temperature.
Kevin Thompson [00:24:41]:
Thermostat. Thermostat. Well, as we say in Chapter one of Love Styles.
Blaine Neufeld [00:24:48]:
Have you read this book?
Kevin Thompson [00:24:50]:
Hey, don't ask that question. Don't ask that question. Notice I've never asked that. On our previous episode, we had Silas on, and I asked Silas at one point, of all the books I've written, how many have you read? And he said, I read a page of one one time.
Blaine Neufeld [00:25:10]:
That's good.
Kevin Thompson [00:25:10]:
That's what he says. And it's the one that's about him. Now let's look at what does secure attachment look like from her side. So we talked about from his side. It woos her out. Now from her side, if she can begin to recognize, you know what? He loves me. He's for me. As long as there's evidence of that, he's working hard for us.
Kevin Thompson [00:25:30]:
Yeah, this is something we need to work out. No question. But whenever he comes to the door, it's okay for me to say I'm frustrated that you didn't let me know, but I'm going to intentionally now ratchet the emotion down to try to match the situation and calm myself with what's going on on the inside. So here's what she needs to realize. I don't have to have him to calm me because that's what she feels is I need him to see me or I'm not going to be calm. No, you actually can manage your own emotions here. And still now bring the conflict to the table again, the edges should be softer. Now I can bring the conflict and say, hey, next time.
Kevin Thompson [00:26:07]:
How can we work on this? I know you love me. I know you're working hard. You're for us, all those kind of things. But here's what I feel when I'm expecting you by six, and not only are you not here, I don't get a text. And I think the powerful part of this, here's what the kids are experiencing as well.
Blaine Neufeld [00:26:22]:
Not out of guilt, but out of facts. Right. Like out of awareness for him or her who's coming through the door and simply say, hey, this is the fight. Like any. Any bit of your confidence will make him more confident because there's also guys or gals coming through that door who've been working hard, who are so insecure about where their role is in the family and if they're loved and appreciated. So they're going to just keep double down and working harder to try to gain that approval from their family. And if she or he is not giving it to her as she comes through the door, it's only going to compound for him. We talked A lot about the person in the house waiting for the person, but it's the one at work also.
Blaine Neufeld [00:27:02]:
Just like, man, where do I even matter in this family? Do I matter? It's like if your spouse tells you that the kids are missing you and they want to be around you and we value quality time over another vacation, or maybe that's a bad one, but a couch or whatever, you know, a nicer house. That leads him to believe I don't have to work as long as I have to work. They actually just want to be. They're content. Right. Because he's chasing after everyone's happiness, if that's me, and then start to achieve it. Yeah, they're trying to achieve it. And if everyone says, dad, we're just content with what this is.
Blaine Neufeld [00:27:36]:
Oh, okay, I'm content now, so I don't have to go take overtime or what have you.
Kevin Thompson [00:27:41]:
Yeah, no, that's very good. All right, let's look at a couple of things they can do so this fight doesn't happen next time. Or is it nearly as bad? So, so three suggestions here of ways to kind of change this. The first thing is, and this is how we protest. It's okay to protest. Think about this. Literally just wrote this book. Talk about the finger.
Kevin Thompson [00:27:59]:
Raised finger protest. The raised fist of defense. I get home the other day and Jenny walks in with a smile on her face, raises her finger and says, I'm going to protest.
Blaine Neufeld [00:28:09]:
Oh, nice.
Adrienne Neufeld [00:28:10]:
Oh, okay.
Kevin Thompson [00:28:11]:
What are we going to protest right now? And it was, hey, how much are you going to work here? Like, what's going on? Right. Had a little job change here. They've added. Added a task to me. And so the very first day that that happened, I was supposed to be home at 6. I got home at 9:30. There were texts, there was. There was plenty of communication.
Kevin Thompson [00:28:31]:
That wasn't a problem. The problem was that, wow, we've added three and a half hours on day one of having, what does this really mean? What is this going to look like? And she and those Notice the brilliance of Jenny in this moment is she didn't let it simmer. She got to the point, hey, if this is how it's going to be, this is not how it's going to be. And so that's a brilliant concept. So one thing I think that they can do is on how they protest. So instead of walking in and whenever he walks in, instead of going, you what if she said, hey, I really need reassurance. So instead of naming the complaint, she's naming the Attachment need. So what's underneath the table? Right.
Kevin Thompson [00:29:15]:
So the temptation is to go what's above the table? You're late. Here's the issue. No, no, no, let me pause. What do I feel underneath the table? Oh, I need reassurance. I'm uncertain. So let's raise that instead of the complaint. So here's what we're going to name the attachment need. Then I think there's a very basic thing that they can do here that we often forget about.
Kevin Thompson [00:29:35]:
It's a whole lot easier to stay out of trouble than get out of trouble. It's a whole lot easier to prevent the problem than to be in it and get out of it. Right.
Adrienne Neufeld [00:29:45]:
Got it now.
Kevin Thompson [00:29:46]:
Thank you. I could tell by Adrienne, that's where the first.
Adrienne Neufeld [00:29:50]:
I don't think that's what it means.
Kevin Thompson [00:29:53]:
But a couple can look at what are our general conflicts and how can we prevent those from being so bad? And a very simple house rule here could be this. You're going to text if you're late. We just know this is what's going to happen. One thing that Jenny and I do is if I can see that I'm running late, one, I'm going to text her. The moment I can see that I'm going to be late, the text is getting sent. And then the moment I get in my car, because it's 20 minute drive home, the moment I get in my car, I call her and say, hey, I'm leaving.
Adrienne Neufeld [00:30:25]:
Yeah, that would be like huge. I'd be like, okay, I have 30 more minutes that I need to really get the kids, like settled or feed them dinner.
Blaine Neufeld [00:30:33]:
I have a great difficulty in this. I'm in it. I'm doing a lot of things. So we've shared my location on the phone.
Kevin Thompson [00:30:39]:
That's another solution that helps.
Adrienne Neufeld [00:30:40]:
Yeah. Because then I'd be like. Or. But then I'll be like, you haven't left yet.
Kevin Thompson [00:30:45]:
That's Ella. So Ella with Ella with us will be. I'll be. Well, the other day I was going to have a late day at work, so I thought, I'll just sleep in a little bit. Right. So literally 15 minutes after the time I normally leave the house, Ella texts me, shouldn't you be at work already? Oh, my gosh, what is going on? And then a third thing that they can do. So whatever you're raising, raise what's below the table, not just focus on what's above the table. Have some rules of how you operate, just a general operating system of what's taking place.
Kevin Thompson [00:31:17]:
And Then let's make sure that we're repairing faster, we're connecting, and then solving the problem. So instead of we're going to duke it out here, when we're disconnected, there are times in which you actually can't solve the issue. If you're disconnected, you can't solve the issue. You have to find a way to reconnect. Then solving the issue becomes very easy. I think this is a difference between healthy couples and unhealthy couples. Why healthy couples tend to be more successful is it's not how much they fight, it's when they fight. Healthy couples fight when they feel connected.
Kevin Thompson [00:31:51]:
So healthy couples try to take care of issues and solve issues when they feel connected because they actually can't solve them. Unhealthy couples try to solve the issue when they feel disconnected and they have no chance of doing so.
Adrienne Neufeld [00:32:01]:
So how do you reconnect to fight?
Blaine Neufeld [00:32:03]:
Go on a date?
Kevin Thompson [00:32:04]:
Go on a walk? Well, I think here. I think in this situation, a walk here could be useful, depending on where the kids are and the meal time. If you're by yourself, you could. So I think here, the reconnection here happens as we're naming the emotions that are underneath the table as we're being securely attached. Truth telling, but being securely attached. And hey, I just needed reassurance. I was so uncertain of what was going on, and it felt like it was going to be forever. Had I known it was just going to be 30 minutes, I would have been so good.
Kevin Thompson [00:32:32]:
And he could say, man, you know what? I got so caught up at work. I'm sorry I did not think about you. I should have. I should have thought about you. But I feel like I'm working for us. So ironically, here's the funny thing. He is thinking about her so much because he probably doesn't have the ability not to because of that dyadic viewpoint. He doesn't realize he's not communicating how much he's thinking about her.
Adrienne Neufeld [00:32:51]:
Interesting.
Kevin Thompson [00:32:52]:
And so that creates a dynamic. So if they can name those emotions and find healing in those emotions, then they can. All right, what are we going to.
Adrienne Neufeld [00:33:00]:
Do next time to make sure, make a plan.
Blaine Neufeld [00:33:02]:
I hear that. But. But, but that's ideal scenario.
Kevin Thompson [00:33:08]:
Yeah.
Blaine Neufeld [00:33:09]:
And I'm thinking of all the friends that I know. It's like the secure attachment just isn't there yet.
Kevin Thompson [00:33:14]:
Right. Yeah.
Blaine Neufeld [00:33:15]:
And I think about a counselor. I think about. We've gone after.
Kevin Thompson [00:33:18]:
They read Love Styles after Love Styles.
Blaine Neufeld [00:33:20]:
Great book. Or they go and see their marriage pastor and they sit and talk for I'm trying to make a good point here.
Kevin Thompson [00:33:26]:
You guys are just Love Styles is the favorite book Adrienne's never read.
Adrienne Neufeld [00:33:30]:
You don't know that.
Kevin Thompson [00:33:31]:
I'm sorry, go ahead. Yes, but it's a good point. Right? This is because they mature action we're talking about.
Blaine Neufeld [00:33:36]:
Because I'm thinking she's like, how do you get there? How do you actually get to secure? It's like we've gone to dinners because we're secure. Find a secure couple to go for a dinner and know that you can truthfully talk it out because you validated many different spouses opinions that the guy had never heard before. No, no, she just doesn't get it. No, you're being stubborn right now. Listen, talk it out loud. And if the couple you're having fun, but at the same time you're willing to go there, they often leave saying, you know what? You're right, babe, I'm going to try. I'm going to do that. Oh, Blaine.
Blaine Neufeld [00:34:09]:
And age or whoever does it. You know, the friends that do it, we'll learn from them. Yeah, let's try it. You know, so I think there is. It's attainable if you're sitting at home saying, he never will ever say come home through the door. You're right, babe, I should be texting you. That's just not where it's at. Go and find an area where you'll actually have that conversation.
Kevin Thompson [00:34:28]:
That's a great point. And I think one thing they both can do, we can all do this is the power of not only knowing yourself, knowing yourself allows you to know your spouse. And so it's one thing as a six. Right. A certainty dyadic. I know what my weaknesses are and I know I need reassurance and all of that. Well, now Jenny knows that she can learn phrases that reassure me. And then here in this situation where he's a three, so bonding.
Kevin Thompson [00:34:54]:
Right. So he wants to achieve that relationship. She needs to be speaking into his threeness.
Adrienne Neufeld [00:35:00]:
Oh, yeah.
Kevin Thompson [00:35:00]:
So she needs to be talking about, man, you work so hard, you're so successful, you're so right. Speaking to his achiever.
Adrienne Neufeld [00:35:06]:
Ego.
Blaine Neufeld [00:35:06]:
No.
Kevin Thompson [00:35:07]:
Yes. No. What is. But ego. Not in a negative way.
Adrienne Neufeld [00:35:10]:
Right, right, right.
Kevin Thompson [00:35:11]:
Not negative way, in the same way. Because here's what's interesting, here's what's fascinating to me, and I get it, is we would say his need for achievement is ego. We don't say her need for reassurance is ego. But it's just as much.
Blaine Neufeld [00:35:26]:
If you were to say to me Babe, I am content with what we have, which I have said, which has given me absolute security to then. Okay, that's great. I'm now happy. I don't need to go and achieve your happiness. I'm now more content. I'll do the dishes. I'll do the thing, you know, so it's like. You're so totally true.
Blaine Neufeld [00:35:47]:
It's like, that is compass tires. Yeah.
Kevin Thompson [00:35:49]:
Well, okay, that's later. So that's friends.
Adrienne Neufeld [00:35:53]:
Doesn't that mean, like, does that mean build them up? Don't make me up to something I'm not.
Kevin Thompson [00:36:02]:
So. But. But notice this goes both ways. He needs to learn reassurance language to her.
Adrienne Neufeld [00:36:07]:
Yes, yes, yes.
Kevin Thompson [00:36:08]:
Honey, I was thinking truthful. Absolutely. You're important to me. I was thinking about you today. I can see why you were scared over that. I can see how my actions would have contributed to that.
Blaine Neufeld [00:36:19]:
I appreciate that you're doing so much to make this thing whole.
Adrienne Neufeld [00:36:22]:
That was another thing we learned. It's like, appreciate each other for the little things. Thank you for doing the dishes. That was so helpful.
Blaine Neufeld [00:36:27]:
Yeah.
Adrienne Neufeld [00:36:28]:
Thank you for working hard.
Blaine Neufeld [00:36:29]:
Like, just even thank you for pumping the tires.
Kevin Thompson [00:36:31]:
Well, there we go.
Adrienne Neufeld [00:36:33]:
Literally.
Kevin Thompson [00:36:36]:
In friends, partners and lovers, I say that please and thank you oftentimes matter more than sex.
Blaine Neufeld [00:36:40]:
Yeah. Well, yeah, debatable.
Kevin Thompson [00:36:46]:
Because the please and thank you will lead to better sex. And you know what happens there? Oh, that will cause us to change the odds.
Blaine Neufeld [00:36:53]:
Yes.
Kevin Thompson [00:36:53]:
We'll see you next time.