Adrienne Neufeld [00:00:00]:
Let me ask you something uncomfortable. Have you ever noticed that the biggest fights are also the moments you feel the most connected? The intensity feels awful, but the closeness feels real. Today's Fight Club is about couples who don't realize conflict has become their only form of intimacy. Oh, if calm feels distant but chaos feels connected, this one's for you.
Kevin Thompson [00:00:23]:
Here we go. Hey, welcome back to Change the Odds. Remembers the family, We're Never Meant to Be, A Game of Chance. Kevin Thompson, Adrienne Blaine Neufeld back on the show. Here we are, here we are.
Blaine Neufeld [00:00:32]:
Ready to go.
Adrienne Neufeld [00:00:32]:
Sounds kind of exciting.
Kevin Thompson [00:00:33]:
Fight Club.
Blaine Neufeld [00:00:34]:
I don't know, I'm kind of nervous.
Kevin Thompson [00:00:35]:
Yeah, actually, for the— I'm sure the cold open was cold to you.
Adrienne Neufeld [00:00:40]:
It's intense. I like it.
Kevin Thompson [00:00:41]:
Certain. Yeah. Okay, here we go. All right, Adrienne, what, what's our fight for today?
Adrienne Neufeld [00:00:46]:
Okay. Hey, Fight Club, my husband and I fight a lot. Wow. Okay. Especially around holidays or emotional moments. What's strange is that after these fights, we feel closer, almost relieved. But the fighting is exhausting. He gets intense, emotional, and anxious when he feels distant.
Adrienne Neufeld [00:01:03]:
I shut down, go numb, or focus on keeping things together.
Blaine Neufeld [00:01:08]:
I am an Enneagram.
Adrienne Neufeld [00:01:12]:
3. Sorry, I didn't see that.
Kevin Thompson [00:01:13]:
There's another— there's another part.
Adrienne Neufeld [00:01:13]:
Yes, sorry. I'm an Enneagram 3— thank you, Blaine— with avoidant attachment. He's an Enneagram 8 with anxious attachment. Is it possible that fighting is the only way we know how to connect?
Kevin Thompson [00:01:22]:
Oh wow, wow.
Blaine Neufeld [00:01:23]:
Is this Sounds dangerous.
Adrienne Neufeld [00:01:25]:
I hope they put dramatic music behind this.
Blaine Neufeld [00:01:28]:
How would it go? Stranger Things.
Kevin Thompson [00:01:34]:
So I have, personally, I have no relationship with this fight whatsoever.
Blaine Neufeld [00:01:39]:
Right.
Adrienne Neufeld [00:01:39]:
I kind of feel like we don't either.
Blaine Neufeld [00:01:41]:
Yeah, we don't have.
Adrienne Neufeld [00:01:44]:
That up and down intensity.
Kevin Thompson [00:01:45]:
But professionally, I have a lot of connection with this fight.
Blaine Neufeld [00:01:49]:
Really?
Kevin Thompson [00:01:49]:
So this is— You see it a lot? Yes. This is a common pattern that people don't recognize, don't realize. I think what's different here, it makes me wonder, she's written into us, she's heard this somewhere. Somebody has told her what's going on. 'Cause generally people do not recognize this pattern until they're sitting with a counselor. Sometimes I'm in my office or I'm talking on the phone and I'm like, hey, do you notice this pattern that actually, is it possible that you're picking the fight to feel the closeness. And so basically what's happened here, and I shouldn't jump in so quickly, but let's just jump in a little bit quickly. They've become good at repair.
Kevin Thompson [00:02:30]:
The problem is they're not staying connected in times of health. So here's the downside is they're actually becoming addicted to the dysfunction now, and that is not uncommon at all. As a matter of fact, I would say this, all of us, are somewhat addicted to our own dysfunction. Really? Because it's what we know. And because we know it, we're more comfortable with it. Our brain knows how to fire. We know how to operate in those kind of things. It's these unknown ways that are actually, could be at times healthy, that we kind of panic about because we don't know how to operate.
Kevin Thompson [00:03:05]:
We don't know what this means. This is a very common thing as people are dating. So let's say you grew up in maybe a more chaotic household, or let's say you grew up where there was an emotional void, and then you start dating a guy and it is an emotional roller coaster, and your affections are there and all these kind of things. But you begin to— your brain begins to wire together the stress and the fight or flight with the kind of love and you begin to associate the two as one.
Adrienne Neufeld [00:03:39]:
Is it like adrenaline too?
Kevin Thompson [00:03:41]:
And all of that, all the chemicals are going on, they're firing. So that let's say you break up because it's so dysfunctional, you break up and you start dating this guy and it's just peaceful.
Adrienne Neufeld [00:03:54]:
And you're like, this is boring.
Kevin Thompson [00:03:55]:
And it can come across as boring. Why is it that sometimes women are drawn toward the bad guy? It could be in part that it's something like this, where you are addicted to the dysfunction, not recognizing that there's aspects of that that are healthy or good, but aspects that are unhealthy. And you've confused what the two actually look like and the thought that they have to be wedded together.
Adrienne Neufeld [00:04:20]:
You see this a lot on reality TV shows.
Kevin Thompson [00:04:22]:
Oh, here we go.
Blaine Neufeld [00:04:22]:
Exactly that.
Adrienne Neufeld [00:04:24]:
I don't know what shows I can say I've been watching.
Kevin Thompson [00:04:27]:
In the past.
Adrienne Neufeld [00:04:28]:
In the past, like the Mormon Wives.
Kevin Thompson [00:04:30]:
But those girls— if this were the Mark Clark podcast, you could say whatever you want.
Adrienne Neufeld [00:04:34]:
Some of those girls are addicted to the chaos.
Blaine Neufeld [00:04:38]:
You would love to do analysis on all those.
Kevin Thompson [00:04:40]:
I've never watched those shows.
Adrienne Neufeld [00:04:42]:
Well, you don't want to, but— or like The Bachelor, or like anything.
Blaine Neufeld [00:04:45]:
Bachelor in Paradise. Oh yeah, for one season out of nowhere, so long ago, and it was just like, what are these people doing to themselves?
Adrienne Neufeld [00:04:54]:
And why do you keep going for these like It's just infuriating to watch.
Kevin Thompson [00:04:59]:
But notice what this couple— so to answer that question, maybe they were on the show. Let's say this couple is that. I'm not saying they are, but let's say they are. You ask, why do they keep doing this? Because you're looking at the dysfunction and the fight and going, why would you ever do that? No, look at the end result of what they're getting. That's when they feel known and connected and passionate. And so it's It's the end game, and they don't understand that they can actually experience that without going through the fight because you've learned how to do that. They haven't learned, and that's the task that's before them today. Let's look at what's going on here.
Kevin Thompson [00:05:35]:
Let's break down this fight. Look at what's going on underneath the table, the emotions that's coming in. So she is now a 3 with a more avoidant. So she feels pressured and overwhelmed. She fears failure. She's emotionally shutting down. She thinks to herself that if I stay composed, maybe I won't lose control or, or be exposed. That's her nature and what's going on.
Kevin Thompson [00:05:55]:
But then something's happening. It's triggering her into actually losing control. He now, as an 8 who's more anxiously attached, he fears loss, urgency, has this intensity, this panic that's underneath the anger. And he's thinking, if I don't push, I'm gonna lose you in some way. So he's again chasing after her. And she's trying to stay away. Let's look at what could be the superpowers of this couple. So you always want to look at your strengths and think, how can we leverage them in this fight in some way? Don't just focus on your weaknesses.
Kevin Thompson [00:06:25]:
And so he's an 8. And so this is you, Blaine. You should recognize this part of it, right? Strong, protective, decisive, big on justice. You want what's right for people and others. You're passionate. You're gut-driven, so you're going to take all this action. So she's a 3. You and I, Adriennene, are going to understand this a little bit better because she's within this triad of 9, 6, she's a 3.
Kevin Thompson [00:06:52]:
So she has the dyadic view. Now she's going to be driven by her heart, a strong drive, going to be competent, full of momentum, and good leaders are this way many times. She's written the story, for me to have relationship, for me to have bonding, which is what I want, I have to achieve. I have to show how worthy I am. He now thinks for wholeness, I need agency. I need to take action. So if I'll take action, it will end where I need to go. And she's thinking I have to achieve in order to be something.
Kevin Thompson [00:07:21]:
Those two things now are playing off of each other in some way. So if they were securely attached and healthy versions of themselves, this relationship, oh my goodness, it would be bold. And resilient. It would be full of purpose and connection. Literally, this is the couple that could build an international marriage ministry, and he's behind the scenes directing all the people. She's on stage entertaining all the people, and they have the marriage that everybody longs for. If they're healthy, this could truly be a very influential couple. But let's look at the shadow sides of what their lead style is of their personality.
Kevin Thompson [00:08:02]:
So he now can be too forceful. He can push. He's going to think, if I don't push, I'm going to be abandoned. And it creates now maybe too much pushing on occasion. And she's thinking that if I ever slow down, I'm going to be left. I'm going to be exposed as being weaker than what I actually am. So notice what's happening here is she's going fast and he's pushing fast, and it's creating all this kind of emotional tension of what's going on. She is avoiding, in all likelihood, meaningful conversation about what's going on below the table for her.
Kevin Thompson [00:08:34]:
He's holding back some of that for him, afraid that he's going to be too much, but then it's coming to these volcanic ruptures. I almost view it this way. It's like in Happily, I talk about the idea of plate tectonics. Remember in 4th grade science when you were studying earthquakes? You have this landmass and this landmass, and they're rubbing against each other until eventually there's a friction that happens and there's an earthquake that takes place. These two people are moving at an extreme speed against each other. And that's what's causing this constant kind of fighting because if it ever calms down, she's going to feel like, I'm about to be exposed who my heart actually is and I don't want that. And he's going to feel like in that moment it lacks the energy to have the passion. It's going to die.
Adrienne Neufeld [00:09:26]:
Yeah.
Kevin Thompson [00:09:26]:
And they're terrified of peace.
Adrienne Neufeld [00:09:29]:
Interesting.
Kevin Thompson [00:09:29]:
Yeah.
Blaine Neufeld [00:09:30]:
And they know they like chaos, and so they're— well, they think they do— addicted.
Kevin Thompson [00:09:34]:
They're addicted to the chaos.
Blaine Neufeld [00:09:37]:
So a lot of self-inflicted wounds in terms of their journeys. And interesting. So if someone like us would, would be hanging out with this couple and you saw them fight, we would be like, oh my gosh, this is the end.
Adrienne Neufeld [00:09:53]:
They're in trouble.
Blaine Neufeld [00:09:54]:
They're in trouble.
Kevin Thompson [00:09:55]:
And then— So here's how— no, absolutely. This is a great point. At the party, they're going to fight in front of everybody and have no hesitancy. She'll be a little bit more hesitant about it at first. So he'll go there, no problem. Think about it. Outward focused. He's not thinking about what's going on inside of him.
Kevin Thompson [00:10:14]:
He's not thinking— we've talked about this before, Adrienne, that What you bring to Blaine is the ability to see how his actions could be negatively impacting other people. He doesn't see it. He just sees what needs to be done. So this guy is viewing it in that way. She is over here with a more dyadic view going, oh, I see how this could happen. I want to stay calm here. I want to keep my appearance strong. But when it begins to show or feel like he's winning— She'll attack.
Kevin Thompson [00:10:43]:
She'll attack because now he's coming after her greatest fear, which is I have to achieve. I have to be— think about what a 3 looks like in an unhealthy way is I have to appear right in the spotlight. So a shadow side of a 3 can be sometimes they can be a little bit deceitful, not intentionally, but they have to project a strength. And so let's say you have a teenager who's a 3 and and they haven't done their homework and you say, have you done your homework? They'll project that they have when they really haven't because they're afraid. Yes.
Adrienne Neufeld [00:11:18]:
They're liars.
Kevin Thompson [00:11:19]:
They're afraid if I expose the truth that I have no value. And think about a 3, they want relationship.
Adrienne Neufeld [00:11:25]:
So they would rather— Value brings relationship.
Kevin Thompson [00:11:27]:
In an unhealthy way, they would rather lie to you and keep the pseudo relationship than be honest with you out of fear that you might abandon them. So at a party, He could launch into something. She's going to try to downplay it to some extent. He starts to win. She dives in. We're standing in the corner going, oh my goodness, if Jenny ever talked to me that way, we would be done forever. And the party ends. We all get in our cars on the way home.
Kevin Thompson [00:11:51]:
We're talking about how they're about to divorce. They're having the greatest sex of their lives.
Adrienne Neufeld [00:11:58]:
Well, can't blame them there.
Blaine Neufeld [00:11:59]:
Something was trying, babe.
Kevin Thompson [00:12:03]:
And think about what that does is it actually wires together in their brain, here's how you feel connected.
Adrienne Neufeld [00:12:11]:
Chaos brings connection.
Kevin Thompson [00:12:13]:
Chaos brings connection. Crazy. And so they're more likely to go there than the next.
Blaine Neufeld [00:12:19]:
So a healthy version, these people could solve very big problems very quickly.
Kevin Thompson [00:12:24]:
Oh my goodness. Yes. This is quite the combination. Yeah. I mean, this is— Because it's not— I mean, every combination has potential for great success. This has potential for extreme influence on others.
Adrienne Neufeld [00:12:38]:
We should be more this way. We want influence.
Kevin Thompson [00:12:42]:
Blaine's like, well, let's start with the makeup sex.
Adrienne Neufeld [00:12:44]:
We'll start and then fight.
Blaine Neufeld [00:12:46]:
I hate you. Nope. No. Okay.
Kevin Thompson [00:12:50]:
Isn't that funny? Some couples would actually do that. Some couples would actually— it's the connection that then causes the fight. And so for some couples, it's the fight that causes the connection. What we would like to do is to basically tear those two things apart to where they're not necessarily wedded in our brain together in an unhealthy way. Let's look at what would secure attachment look like just first of all, for this couple. Secure attachment would empower him to step outside of his anxious attachment and to not pursue after her. It would actually begin to kind of calm the edges of his own emotion. So he can now, when he feels disconnected or whenever it feels like his action isn't being accepted or he's not being respected, it creates such an emotion within him that he then lashes out in a justice, this isn't right, and with an anxious attachment in a very blaming way.
Kevin Thompson [00:13:44]:
So think about anxious attachment. The general thought is going to be, if you would do better, I'll be okay.
Adrienne Neufeld [00:13:49]:
"If you would do better, I'll be okay.".
Kevin Thompson [00:13:51]:
So an anxious attachment tends to think, or, "if I could appease you, I'll be okay." Anxious attachments, our mindset is we need other people to be okay for ourselves.
Adrienne Neufeld [00:14:02]:
Interesting.
Kevin Thompson [00:14:02]:
And we're literally almost helpless because until they give us what we need, there's nothing we can do about it. And that's unhealthy. It's not true. So for a secure attachment, he would begin to feel his own agency and feel empowered that, you know what, I can calm myself. I don't have to have her to calm.
Blaine Neufeld [00:14:22]:
That's where I got. I used to want to make sure that you're happy. Are you happy?
Kevin Thompson [00:14:25]:
Are you happy?
Blaine Neufeld [00:14:26]:
Now I feel secure. So I'm like, I know you're probably happy and I don't need your happiness to feel good. I hope you're happy, but it won't define me.
Kevin Thompson [00:14:36]:
And also he could begin to recognize we don't have to have heightened emotion to believe that closeness is there. Right. So right now, let's face it, if his great fear is abandonment, there's two ways to not feel abandoned. You can be loving me, and you're engaged, or you can be hating me and be engaged, and you're engaged. But at least you're in it.
Adrienne Neufeld [00:15:00]:
It's like kids who want attention. It's like, yes, negative or positive attention. They're just getting the attention. They don't care what it is.
Blaine Neufeld [00:15:06]:
No. So that's where so many kids, if they're acting out, or going to the principal, they're okay with it because they're just like, someone sees me now.
Adrienne Neufeld [00:15:14]:
I think so.
Blaine Neufeld [00:15:14]:
That's interesting.
Kevin Thompson [00:15:15]:
Yeah.
Blaine Neufeld [00:15:15]:
Yeah.
Kevin Thompson [00:15:16]:
So that's where he is.
Blaine Neufeld [00:15:17]:
Yeah.
Adrienne Neufeld [00:15:18]:
So did he maybe never really grow out of some kind of situation as a kid, perhaps?
Kevin Thompson [00:15:22]:
Could be.
Adrienne Neufeld [00:15:22]:
It's like, could be there's not a lot of negative attention.
Kevin Thompson [00:15:25]:
Yeah. I mean, we could, we could probably say that all, all of us have non-secure approaches. And all of those are probably places from our childhood that we didn't receive the love that we needed in the time and our brain didn't accept it in that way. And so we carry those into our present relationships. So for her, an avoidant attachment, right? She needs to begin to show that she can actually lean in and depend upon him and actually be vulnerable. Word of the year 2026. She can be vulnerable with him without losing a sense of who she actually is. Because think about her avoidant attachment.
Kevin Thompson [00:15:59]:
The mindset is, if they get too close, I'll be exposed. Think about how that triggers her 3-ness as well. But if they get too close, I'll be exposed. So I had to keep them at an arm's distance. Well, the one way to keep him at an arm's distance is by yelling at him.
Adrienne Neufeld [00:16:14]:
Stay away.
Kevin Thompson [00:16:15]:
Yeah, push back. It's like a barking dog.
Blaine Neufeld [00:16:17]:
Arm length.
Kevin Thompson [00:16:18]:
You better get away.
Adrienne Neufeld [00:16:19]:
Yeah.
Kevin Thompson [00:16:20]:
And what she doesn't recognize is she's now trying to protect her own self. And if she would get a secure attachment here, she wouldn't feel such a pressure to win the argument. And this is a dangerous couple here because they're both going to be trying to win the argument because he desperately needs to be right. She desperately needs to win. And that is going to— That's an interesting combo. That's going to make it very difficult for either one to come in and say, hey, you know what? You might be right here. Or I could be— He's going to struggle to say I'm wrong. She's going to struggle to show any weakness..
Kevin Thompson [00:16:59]:
And there creates a tremendous tension in what's going on.
Blaine Neufeld [00:17:03]:
I could see him enabling her and saying, yeah, you're right, you're right. And then slowly being defeated over time because he's just trying to make sure she's happy.
Kevin Thompson [00:17:13]:
Yeah.
Blaine Neufeld [00:17:13]:
Even though she's winning that, because she, he knows she has to win.
Kevin Thompson [00:17:17]:
Yeah. Well, the, the, I think that the underlying pattern here, if we were to simplify it in the simplest forms, it would basically be his anxious attachment provokes her into a fight that then she wants to win. Attachment. Wow. That's what's going on here, right? She doesn't want to fight, right? But she ain't gonna lose, right? Right.
Blaine Neufeld [00:17:35]:
And she's okay with no fight.
Kevin Thompson [00:17:36]:
Yep. And his anxious attachment needs some kind of response. And if I'm not getting good response, I'm going to get bad response. But either way, I'm getting something. Yeah. And that's the pattern that's being provoked.
Blaine Neufeld [00:17:46]:
So if he becomes secure and there.
Kevin Thompson [00:17:49]:
Is no fighting— if he becomes secure, he won't always need the emotional response for the connection. He'll know. So here's what he needs to do. Think about that. He's more gut-driven. He needs to lean into his brain now and know she loves me. Look at the facts. I know that she loves me.
Kevin Thompson [00:18:07]:
He needs to now engage his heart in some way to go, I feel loved by her because look at the life we've created. Look at everything that's around. And so I don't have to have this heightened emotional experience of this moment to have it proved to me. I already know that it's there. So, so, so notice this gut-driven, right? He wants the action of the connection. And whether that's sex or a fight doesn't matter to him because either way, at least he's getting the action of connection, right? He needs to learn— this is his lead style— he needs to learn now to embrace his head and his heart to go, I don't have to have the action. I can actually have the feeling or I can have the certainty, right? That I know of what— look at the time and what's proven here. I don't— let's face it, As I sit here right now, and I'm a certainty-driven guy, obviously, I don't ever debate whether or not Jenny loves me.
Kevin Thompson [00:18:57]:
Now, are there times in which maybe I feel unloved? Yes. Are there times in which maybe the actions of love are missing? Yes. All those kinds of things. But the idea that I sit here and go, oh my, no, no, I know for a fact that Jenny loves me. And so he can grow in that to leverage it, to not say, I just have to have the action. I can live in this other way. It's the wholeness.
Blaine Neufeld [00:19:17]:
And I can see how these, these two, like, as a good leader, I can see why they'd be good leaders too, because they can provoke the thought. Yeah, right. If healthy or unhealthy, he would be able to like say the things just to kind of create the things and then create momentum.
Kevin Thompson [00:19:32]:
Yeah.
Blaine Neufeld [00:19:32]:
But like the passion together and she would find a way to win. Oh yeah, I like it.
Kevin Thompson [00:19:36]:
Yeah. Oh yeah, you see this?
Blaine Neufeld [00:19:37]:
I'm seeing— I'm seeing that. You see the potential here now?
Kevin Thompson [00:19:40]:
Yeah. But think about this couple. She's driven by her heart. He's driven by his gut. And so they can compassionately and affectionately do great things. Now they might need to learn to bring in their mind, just the head, just a little bit to make sure that what they're doing is the right thing. That's probably what's missing in these fights is they're going to be illogical fights in all likelihood, not contextual to the moment. The emotions are going to be far heightened than what actually is going on.
Kevin Thompson [00:20:06]:
The idea that we'll fight in front of this entire entire crowd and the.
Blaine Neufeld [00:20:09]:
Amount of unnecessary fights that they bring own problems onto themselves. No question.
Kevin Thompson [00:20:13]:
You don't need it. Have y'all gone through— have y'all ever looked at a fight and gone, well, that was ridiculous?
Blaine Neufeld [00:20:18]:
Oh, I mean, we would say it would— oh, that was silly, that was, that was stupid.
Adrienne Neufeld [00:20:23]:
Yeah, we— yes, we blew that out of proportion. It was really just this little thing we could have talked about. Yeah, usually we do. We are like talkers, we're not fighters.
Blaine Neufeld [00:20:33]:
Like We quickly look back at why did we do that? Yeah.
Adrienne Neufeld [00:20:36]:
What were we mad about? Yeah. What were we really mad about?
Kevin Thompson [00:20:39]:
Right.
Adrienne Neufeld [00:20:41]:
Yeah.
Kevin Thompson [00:20:41]:
What are you saying? Well, you said we're not really fighters. Okay.
Adrienne Neufeld [00:20:44]:
And I wonder— I think we're good fighters.
Kevin Thompson [00:20:46]:
Yeah. Here's my guess with y'all. Prove me wrong. Okay.
Adrienne Neufeld [00:20:49]:
Let's see.
Kevin Thompson [00:20:50]:
Y'all, you don't yell. You raise your tone a little bit and there's a snippiness, but not necessarily— y'all would never be like this couple. We're not explosive. Words just become a little bit more daggerish.
Adrienne Neufeld [00:21:05]:
And if I'm really upset, I might cry. And then you know, this is serious.
Kevin Thompson [00:21:11]:
That's the most 9 thing I've ever.
Adrienne Neufeld [00:21:13]:
Heard in my life. Then I cry.
Kevin Thompson [00:21:16]:
Then I am a true 9. So what happens there is you're a little bit uncomfortable with your own emotion.
Adrienne Neufeld [00:21:22]:
Yeah.
Kevin Thompson [00:21:22]:
Vulnerability.
Blaine Neufeld [00:21:23]:
Yeah.
Kevin Thompson [00:21:23]:
And then it bubbles up. And so think about this. Have to shift your fear. You have to shift your anger into peace. You can't really— you're uncomfortable. If you were to show anger at an extreme level, that would make you highly uncomfortable later. You'd be ashamed of it.
Adrienne Neufeld [00:21:43]:
Yeah. But also when I'm sad, it usually comes out as frustration. It's not usually sadness. It's more like, yeah, anger. Yeah, but then not explosive.
Kevin Thompson [00:21:55]:
So this couple, right, they actually have unknowingly leveraged this now because what they really want is the connection. And the way they want it is probably the makeup sex or whatever that looks like. I'm guessing makeup sex with a couple of this fashion. Have y'all ever been tempted toward that? Blaine, have you ever been tempted to start a fight thinking, oh, the makeup sex would be great? No.
Blaine Neufeld [00:22:16]:
I don't think I ever have. Unless I have and failed. I guess the only thing I know is there's never been any passionate. I've never— so I wouldn't understand.
Adrienne Neufeld [00:22:27]:
Watch yourself. Never been any passionate?
Blaine Neufeld [00:22:30]:
No, no. Like, from a fight, right? Like, where— like, I think a fight, I don't think she would ever get to that position of like, oh yeah, take me now because we're mad at each other.
Kevin Thompson [00:22:43]:
It just feels foreign to me. I'll see you 3 days from now in the shower. Don't even think about it.
Adrienne Neufeld [00:22:51]:
Shower.
Kevin Thompson [00:22:51]:
That's a callback to last week's episode. See how we did that? Get her done. Yeah.
Blaine Neufeld [00:22:54]:
No, I don't think so. I'm having a hard time wrapping my head around it.
Adrienne Neufeld [00:22:58]:
Our passion, if we're having passion, it's more like we've gone to a hotel and we're gearing up and we're ready because we don't have kids around. And it's not ever because we're angry.
Blaine Neufeld [00:23:07]:
No, we've checked the boxes. Everyone's good.
Adrienne Neufeld [00:23:11]:
There's a lot of— It's more like I need to know we're good before.
Blaine Neufeld [00:23:14]:
We get into it. Your head is important.
Kevin Thompson [00:23:16]:
My head is important. Thank you.
Blaine Neufeld [00:23:19]:
The whole head.
Kevin Thompson [00:23:20]:
All of it. The hair, the eyes, everything.
Adrienne Neufeld [00:23:21]:
The brain.
Kevin Thompson [00:23:22]:
The brain. Yeah. So yeah, I mean, this is too personal, but I don't think Jenny listens to this podcast.
Adrienne Neufeld [00:23:27]:
But Jenny, text us if you listen.
Kevin Thompson [00:23:30]:
Makeup sex is not a thing. I mean, I don't know.
Adrienne Neufeld [00:23:36]:
We're putting ideas in Blaine's mind.
Kevin Thompson [00:23:39]:
I know. Try it. There's probably been a—.
Blaine Neufeld [00:23:44]:
See, I'm mad at you. No, I'm mad at you. Okay, I guess.
Kevin Thompson [00:23:50]:
Bang. I feel like the most passionate for us is now it's similar is when there has been times of disconnection. So maybe we've gone a little bit further, a little bit longer than what we normally go without having it, that kind of thing. Maybe there has been a little friction and frustration. Sure. We just don't have these explosive fights and then the passionate sex as far as that goes.
Blaine Neufeld [00:24:09]:
I feel guilty when sex is a service. So if it felt like I did this to get that, I think I wouldn't enjoy it.
Kevin Thompson [00:24:23]:
Yeah. No, I get that. I get that.
Adrienne Neufeld [00:24:25]:
If you poked a fight, if I.
Blaine Neufeld [00:24:27]:
Was manipulating you to do it, sure, we did it. But then at the end, you're like, that wasn't fun. I want it where both are having the greatest time ever.
Kevin Thompson [00:24:36]:
Yeah, I get it. Yeah, that makes sense. All right, let's look at a couple of gross suggestions for them. And then with this specifically, we want to add some tools. That I think this couple can use to get out of this pattern. And so the first thing they need to do is to recognize the pattern. How do you do that? Well, listen to this podcast. It's pretty easy for them.
Kevin Thompson [00:24:56]:
You know who you are. Begin to look at— patterns are just so important. This is one of the powers of love styles. It begins to help expose what are our patterns to where we can see things that we're doing that we don't recognize that we're doing. Many times I'll talk to an individual and let's say they're single, they want to get married. And I'll say, what are your past relationships been like? And they'll talk about maybe the 3 people that they've dated before. And just as they describe it, I hear it, that each of those relationships lasted about the same amount of time. Interesting.
Kevin Thompson [00:25:28]:
All right. By itself, the fact that that relationship went 6 months, not a big deal. The fact that you've dated 3 different people around 6 to 8 months, Very interesting. It means you have the ability to make this connection with somebody. You can do the early dates, and then something is happening at some point where either you're starting to check out or you're emotionally shutting down, and so they check out. And if you can begin to look at that pattern, and then the next time you get into a relationship, as you get near that end, begin to recognize, all right, what do I— how do I tend to relate here? And maybe you need a coach to help you. Let me make sure I make a different choice here. They need to see what are our best times.
Kevin Thompson [00:26:05]:
Oh, they're all around this, these fights. Okay, what does it look like to do that in a different way?
Blaine Neufeld [00:26:11]:
I could see that with friendships as well. Like high quality people that high efficiency, go, go, go, go, then it doesn't start— then you stop winning in that relationship and then those friendships can— what.
Adrienne Neufeld [00:26:24]:
Does it say if Blaine's my only boyfriend I've ever had?
Kevin Thompson [00:26:28]:
You're a loyalist. Yeah, I mean, I mean, me and Jenny, like, it's, it's, it just, it just means we choose wisely and then we go from there. Or we're loyal. Or it means you have no idea what you're missing out on.
Blaine Neufeld [00:26:40]:
That was one of her fears.
Adrienne Neufeld [00:26:41]:
That was what— that was one reason we broke up for 10 days.
Kevin Thompson [00:26:44]:
Oh, there we go.
Adrienne Neufeld [00:26:44]:
Because he's also my next-door neighbor, so I was like, I only went next door. Yeah, what if I want to go across the street?
Kevin Thompson [00:26:49]:
So you took— you took— that's well done. Uh, Adrienne's convenient.
Adrienne Neufeld [00:26:53]:
I've been working on that joke. Check it out.
Kevin Thompson [00:26:57]:
What's the website?
Adrienne Neufeld [00:26:57]:
I got nothing. No, I don't think I'm taking a break from social media.
Blaine Neufeld [00:27:00]:
We should do some jokes on one of these.
Kevin Thompson [00:27:02]:
Write our best jokes. Oh, there we go. Have a write-off?
Blaine Neufeld [00:27:05]:
No. Yeah, just a couple of jokes.
Kevin Thompson [00:27:07]:
Have Jenny judge. She would give us nothing. She'd be like, yeah, that was funny. That was funny. Okay, so they need to slow down. A second thing that they need to learn how to do now is they need to figure out a way to slow down and actually embrace calm. And neither one are going to like this. This is going to begin to provoke him because he likes action.
Kevin Thompson [00:27:29]:
This can be even provoke her because in the calmness, there's no outward appreciation.
Blaine Neufeld [00:27:35]:
So these guys would have a tough.
Kevin Thompson [00:27:36]:
Time on a retreat. These guys would have a tough time.
Adrienne Neufeld [00:27:40]:
Well, no. Oh no, they'd fight at the retreat and have great sex.
Kevin Thompson [00:27:42]:
They would fight on the retreat. They would win the retreat, the games that were beforehand. They would cheat the retreat.
Adrienne Neufeld [00:27:49]:
These people are competitive by nature. Probably. Yeah. Like at a games night, they're all in no matter at the cost of their marriage.
Blaine Neufeld [00:27:58]:
I enjoy chaos at a games night.
Kevin Thompson [00:28:01]:
Is that okay?
Adrienne Neufeld [00:28:02]:
But what do you mean by that?
Blaine Neufeld [00:28:03]:
You like seeing people— I like provoking. So this couple, I would love— So annoying.
Adrienne Neufeld [00:28:09]:
I know, right, Kevin?
Blaine Neufeld [00:28:10]:
I would love to get the most out of them.
Kevin Thompson [00:28:11]:
So let me ask you this. What if there's nobody around for you to.
Adrienne Neufeld [00:28:17]:
Provoke?
Kevin Thompson [00:28:17]:
To me.
Adrienne Neufeld [00:28:18]:
Exactly. Except that I don't get provoked because I'm not competitive enough.
Kevin Thompson [00:28:21]:
But she will. This one, she will. So get this. So this guy is like you. He will provoke because he likes the chaos because it means there's energy, there's a chance of love.
Adrienne Neufeld [00:28:31]:
It's fun. People are probably having fun, but they're all mad.
Kevin Thompson [00:28:33]:
She is more avoidant, doesn't like. But if the way he provokes her is by putting her on the spot to where, oh, you're losing, you might be losing.
Blaine Neufeld [00:28:41]:
If I love her, I will.
Kevin Thompson [00:28:42]:
And now that's triggering you. You're not triggered. I'm not triggered. She's 100%.
Adrienne Neufeld [00:28:48]:
I'm like, yeah, I'm losing. So this is a game. Get over it. There's bigger things in the world to worry about.
Blaine Neufeld [00:28:52]:
Very sensitive to this person. And I now know this because I want to ensure that she's comfortable and happy to win.
Kevin Thompson [00:29:01]:
I want her to win. Let her win.
Blaine Neufeld [00:29:02]:
I want her to win.
Adrienne Neufeld [00:29:03]:
Oh, and you will let people win.
Blaine Neufeld [00:29:05]:
Which her husband will do the same thing.
Kevin Thompson [00:29:07]:
He's never done that in golf.
Adrienne Neufeld [00:29:08]:
No, not in golf. We're at a games day.
Blaine Neufeld [00:29:09]:
I've let Kevin win a few times. I've achieved that.
Kevin Thompson [00:29:15]:
All right. So another thing they need to begin to honor, and this is a long game, is they need to begin to recognize the power of presence and that I am actually loved and accepted as I am, and I can be with you. So think about what secure attachment here would do for them. She would learn to lean on him. I actually don't have to win your love. I can receive your love. He now can come from such a place of security of being loved. That he's not trying to use her to calm himself.
Kevin Thompson [00:29:46]:
Instead, he can actually give his love truly to her. And that's what's missing in this relationship at this moment. What's happening at this moment is he's actually using her to feel his own sense of self, and, and she is keeping him at a little bit of a distance, afraid that unless I achieve your love, it's not really real. And so it's this pseudo-love that they're dealing with. So here, here are a couple tools Sometimes we bring up tools here, sometimes we don't, but here's something that I think that they can do. Go back and listen to our episode on the window of tolerance. And to begin to learn, when am I in my window? When am I outside my window? For my spouse, when am I in that? When am I outside that? And you only try to deal with problems when both of you are inside your window of tolerance. Don't try to solve something outside of the window because it won't be solvable.
Kevin Thompson [00:30:34]:
That will be a difficult thing. And secondly, a tool I think they can use is what are some physical ways that they can connect that are actually calm? Now, this would be very difficult for them, but I'm going to give them a recommendation that I heard a counselor give one time. And this counselor, very wise, does a lot of marriage counseling. And she said one thing that she recommends to her couples on occasion is is you think about, you go back to the very beginning of life, and as a child is breastfeeding, they're making eye contact with their mother. And in that moment, literally our brains are feeling seen, known, valued, loved, connected. So one thing that this counselor recommends that she said her and her husband do, that she recommends to other couples, is literally one sits there, the other one lays in their lap, And so let's say he's laying in her lap. She is going to rub his hair and they're going to make eye contact. Cool.
Kevin Thompson [00:31:33]:
They're going to do that for a while and then they're going to switch. Would you be okay with that? I would try. Oh, we might have an assignment. Yeah. So they're not— this isn't going to be very vulnerable. Yeah. This isn't going to be conversation. What you're doing here, what they need to do— this sounds weird.
Kevin Thompson [00:31:49]:
You think, well, why do I need that? Because what we're thinking in that moment is, what am I going to learn from that? It's not about what your mind's going to learn, it's about what your body's going to learn. They need to retrain their bodies of how they can be calm in the presence of each other and find a key emotional connection in the calmness rather than in the chaos. And if they will have the power to do that, these fights will begin to minimize, the sex will be good in other times as well, and they'll recognize that that what we're looking for, we can actually find in much healthier places than the way we're going about it right now.
Blaine Neufeld [00:32:25]:
I love that. I love it. I also love the double down on the window of tolerance. Me being a fixer, knowing when she's in the window and we can actually fix has been very, very helpful for us. And as we've done that and grown, you know what has happened?
Kevin Thompson [00:32:42]:
What's happened? Well, have you— is it possible? No, it is.
Blaine Neufeld [00:32:44]:
It is.
Kevin Thompson [00:32:45]:
And it has. That you change the odds? Absolutely. We'll see you next time.