Kevin Thompson [00:00:00]:
Hey, welcome back. To Change the odds for marriage and family were never meant to be a game of chance. Blaine and Adrienne, we're back. Here we are. How is it? We're recording this on a Friday, which is very unusual for us.
Adrienne Neufeld [00:00:10]:
Yeah.
Kevin Thompson [00:00:10]:
Because I normally like to play golf.
Adrienne Neufeld [00:00:12]:
It's raining. So you're not golfing.
Kevin Thompson [00:00:13]:
It is raining.
Adrienne Neufeld [00:00:14]:
Finally, it worked out.
Kevin Thompson [00:00:15]:
So how about this? I did text my buddies in Arkansas to say, hey, we got measurable rain. Because up where I live, they measure the rain. Well, everybody measures the rain.
Adrienne Neufeld [00:00:24]:
I was like, we do that. Sorry.
Blaine Neufeld [00:00:27]:
We do that on the farms.
Kevin Thompson [00:00:28]:
That's the nerdiest thing ever.
Adrienne Neufeld [00:00:30]:
No, that's. The conversation's like, oh, we got 4 millimeters of rain. That's what you talk about.
Blaine Neufeld [00:00:35]:
I thought it was five, Joe. No, it was four.
Kevin Thompson [00:00:38]:
Measurable rain, meaning the National Weather Service would say, you actually got rain, and it's. It's the first. So here we are at the end of September. It's the first measurable rain we've gotten since Mother's Day. Wow. And so. Which is normal around here. But my friends in Arkansas are like, that's the craziest thing I've ever heard.
Blaine Neufeld [00:00:53]:
That's why they should come over here and join some of the retreats that we have.
Kevin Thompson [00:00:56]:
Oh, that's exciting.
Blaine Neufeld [00:00:57]:
State California.
Kevin Thompson [00:00:59]:
That's a great idea. All right, all right. I'm sorry.
Adrienne Neufeld [00:01:02]:
I'm sorry. I got eager. I was trying to be scared.
Kevin Thompson [00:01:04]:
We're back to Q and A.
Adrienne Neufeld [00:01:05]:
We're doing Q and A.
Kevin Thompson [00:01:08]:
So if you. So if you want to text marriage to 56316, all these are anonymous questions that come in. We get those. And the questions that we have today now come from that. Except Adrienne apparently has a question.
Adrienne Neufeld [00:01:21]:
Whatever, Kevin. I'm fine. Okay. I do have a question before we enter the questions.
Kevin Thompson [00:01:26]:
Okay.
Adrienne Neufeld [00:01:29]:
What are a few things that you, as a marriage expert, see that, like, us, through the untrained eye, might be like, oh, that's fun. Look at them doing that. But you were like, that's kind of a red flag. Oh, your marriage might be in trouble here.
Kevin Thompson [00:01:42]:
Things that I.
Adrienne Neufeld [00:01:42]:
We're like, oh, look at them. They posted a selfie.
Kevin Thompson [00:01:45]:
Oh, yeah. Well, so, okay. So the one I'm known most for, and I think maybe we've talked about this before. I don't remember, actually. Is average person at a wedding, and they watch a couple cut the cake. Have we talked about this?
Adrienne Neufeld [00:02:00]:
Have we talked about cake? I don't know.
Kevin Thompson [00:02:02]:
So thanks for paying attention. And they get a little physical in the midst of feeding the cake.
Blaine Neufeld [00:02:08]:
Oh, aggressive.
Adrienne Neufeld [00:02:09]:
Oh, yep, we've seen that. And you're like, oh, this is uncomfortable.
Kevin Thompson [00:02:12]:
And I'm over here like, yeah, that has no chance.
Adrienne Neufeld [00:02:15]:
Yes, we have talked. I've heard you talk about this.
Kevin Thompson [00:02:16]:
So there is that aspect. And it's not whether or not they do that. It's as you're watching this, can you see the moment that one of them needs to de. Escalate, but instead they escalate. Well, if they do that in front of everybody with a wedding cake, what are they going to do when the fight is on in the house and nobody's around? They're not going to have the ability to restrain themselves. And so that it's not just fighting over the wedding. It's not smashing the cake. That's the danger.
Kevin Thompson [00:02:42]:
It's the lack of respect that is evident in something like that. Somebody literally sent me one today, and it was as bad as it's been. And they're like this couple, you know, I don't think they're going to make it to the honeymoon. And my point was, look, if they prearrange that, okay, if she early on said, you know what I want to do? I want to have a knockdown drag out with a wedding cake. And he's like, all right, let's do that then. Great. They can communicate all those kind of things. But chances are that's not what happened.
Kevin Thompson [00:03:10]:
Chances are they ended up going to the ground while everybody else was watching because neither one had the ability to hold back. But there are other things. There are other things that maybe you wouldn't think about that sometimes. I see. I don't know if this is fair, but this is true. If you change your social media post from you and your husband to you and your child. I got questions.
Blaine Neufeld [00:03:34]:
What do you mean, change your post?
Adrienne Neufeld [00:03:35]:
Like your profile picture?
Blaine Neufeld [00:03:36]:
Oh, well, yeah.
Kevin Thompson [00:03:38]:
Yeah.
Adrienne Neufeld [00:03:39]:
I mean, that's. I think every girl knows that.
Kevin Thompson [00:03:40]:
Just a little. Like every girl in me.
Adrienne Neufeld [00:03:44]:
Yeah. Because it's like, oh, her husband ain't in there anymore. That's what happened.
Kevin Thompson [00:03:50]:
It's interesting.
Adrienne Neufeld [00:03:51]:
Something's going on.
Kevin Thompson [00:03:51]:
It is interesting. Not that you can't have a picture with your child. That's great. That's great. It just intrigues me. Another thing that maybe some people don't recognize if one of the spouses suddenly gets into shape.
Adrienne Neufeld [00:04:07]:
Uh. Oh. Oh, no.
Kevin Thompson [00:04:11]:
But haven't you always been in shape?
Adrienne Neufeld [00:04:14]:
Yes. Thank you, Kevin.
Kevin Thompson [00:04:17]:
I feel like I can't. This is a very dangerous question for me to.
Blaine Neufeld [00:04:21]:
As long as You've known her, you've noticed some good things.
Adrienne Neufeld [00:04:25]:
I have had seasons. It's seasonal. But I have always made, like, a.
Blaine Neufeld [00:04:31]:
Healthy, conscious choice of trying to keep healthy.
Adrienne Neufeld [00:04:35]:
Yeah, you're right. It's not like something I just did.
Blaine Neufeld [00:04:37]:
It's a healthy form of it.
Kevin Thompson [00:04:39]:
No red flag for me whatsoever. Here's what's interesting. Sometimes, not always. Sometimes when one spouse suddenly starts working out and becomes kind of obsessed with it in a way they haven't been before.
Adrienne Neufeld [00:04:49]:
Yeah.
Kevin Thompson [00:04:50]:
Two possibilities. One, they might unknowingly be preparing to find the next person because they feel a disconnection in their relationship, and they don't necessarily. It's not necessarily conscious thing. It's that they can feel the disconnection. And here's how important attachment is to our relation to our lives. That if we feel any sense of detachment, that's danger to us. And. And we will do things to make sure that we are attached to somebody.
Kevin Thompson [00:05:19]:
And so sometimes that can be an underlying thing. The other thing, that can be a warning sign. There is some people don't recognize that if you start a new workout community or whatever, that's all great. You just need to have very strong boundaries. Because suddenly working out in groups is far more powerful and far more effective. However, now you're in relationship with these people, that opens you up. Years ago, CrossFit was the number one kind of workout at the time. And I just wrote this article, Beware the CrossFit affair, because I was dealing with it all the time.
Kevin Thompson [00:05:55]:
Wow. And people weren't going there with the idea this is going to happen, but they just didn't have boundaries. And now they're working out and all these things. And then this happened. Well, I wrote this article. People went ballistic. Ballistic. How dare you? All these things.
Kevin Thompson [00:06:11]:
And I'm like, you know, if I walk into a doctor's office and the doctor says, hey, be careful, because people who are drinking Cokes, you know, have a higher rate of cancer. I don't, in that moment, go, how dare you?
Blaine Neufeld [00:06:23]:
Yeah, right.
Kevin Thompson [00:06:24]:
I'm like, oh, I might want to think about that.
Blaine Neufeld [00:06:25]:
Right.
Kevin Thompson [00:06:26]:
You know?
Blaine Neufeld [00:06:26]:
Right.
Kevin Thompson [00:06:27]:
But their response in that moment, as I was talking about all these things that I'm seeing, was not, ooh, okay, let's be careful. I did have a couple boxes who took my article and pinned it up and said, hey, pay attention to this, because I gave some guidelines as you're working out, here's what I would do and not do. I had a couple that went crazy. Here's what's Interesting.
Adrienne Neufeld [00:06:45]:
Some of the loudest critics were having an affair.
Kevin Thompson [00:06:49]:
Yes. Yeah. Yes. I didn't say that. You said that, but yes.
Adrienne Neufeld [00:06:53]:
I don't know who these critics are. I don't care.
Kevin Thompson [00:06:55]:
In the weeks to come, it was revealed.
Adrienne Neufeld [00:06:57]:
Oh, well, obviously they're feeling like you're attacking us.
Kevin Thompson [00:07:00]:
Here's why they shouted out so much. I'll do one more before we get into this Q and A. Unless you'll have more. When there is a very expensive gift given without any context, I'm like, what do you do?
Blaine Neufeld [00:07:17]:
What did he do?
Kevin Thompson [00:07:18]:
Oh, yeah.
Adrienne Neufeld [00:07:19]:
This is like. That's why we love reality tv, I think, because it's all these things playing out and we're, like, trying to figure out. Okay, here we go. It's like the tea bad.
Blaine Neufeld [00:07:29]:
They love tea.
Adrienne Neufeld [00:07:30]:
Oh, love the tea.
Kevin Thompson [00:07:31]:
I don't know what that means.
Blaine Neufeld [00:07:32]:
So the, like.
Adrienne Neufeld [00:07:33]:
Yeah, the drama.
Kevin Thompson [00:07:34]:
Oh, as you're drinking tea.
Adrienne Neufeld [00:07:35]:
No, no.
Kevin Thompson [00:07:36]:
O.
Adrienne Neufeld [00:07:37]:
Not real tea. It's like a saying, I think, like, the Gen Z's made it.
Kevin Thompson [00:07:41]:
This could be a whole different. Show the tea.
Adrienne Neufeld [00:07:43]:
Like, spill the teas. Like, what's the gosp. What's the hot goss? Yeah, but I just. Going back to the workout thing also, I think, because I want to make sure we're fine. But when people also start obsessing over their body, I think it's a form of control in a way where maybe they're feeling out of control in their marriage or at their home. Like, I can't. I can't. I just need to go.
Adrienne Neufeld [00:08:05]:
Like, I can control the way I feel, you know? And there's also that element of, like, we do need to move our bodies, and it can create endorphins and all that stuff, like mental health, clarity and stuff in a healthy way.
Kevin Thompson [00:08:16]:
Highly encourage it.
Adrienne Neufeld [00:08:17]:
And.
Kevin Thompson [00:08:17]:
And don't. And no, no judgment of. If your friend suddenly starts working out, go, oh, don't do that. The last thing we need is not to work out.
Adrienne Neufeld [00:08:23]:
It's like the obsessive nature of it. It's like, oh, and maybe you're getting your hair. You're getting it. I don't know.
Kevin Thompson [00:08:28]:
It's just like, it's something to be aware of.
Blaine Neufeld [00:08:31]:
And I would imagine that there is a form of flattery when you're in those communities and this bond that you're making with these people of. Of you're reaching new heights together. There's like, that relationship.
Adrienne Neufeld [00:08:42]:
And that's not just working out, though.
Blaine Neufeld [00:08:44]:
I think was my point, too. Go ahead. Okay, Go ahead.
Adrienne Neufeld [00:08:46]:
Because my friend Was like, have you seen Dancing with the Stars lately? And I was like, no. And they're like. And then we talked about it, and they. It's like these couples are coming together and having this intimate time and sweaty. And they're dancing, and there's all. It's like, you know, the affairs are happy, are breeding. It's a breeding ground.
Kevin Thompson [00:09:02]:
Oh, well. Oh, you're. You're setting yourself up. If you do not have strong boundaries.
Blaine Neufeld [00:09:06]:
There, it's just dangerous to finish my point.
Adrienne Neufeld [00:09:11]:
Sorry. I'm so sorry.
Blaine Neufeld [00:09:12]:
I thought I was right there, but I'm just thinking about. Okay, so it's those same boundaries that you're talking about for this fitness world because they're making these connections. How similar would they be to the work world, where suddenly there's work relationships and, like, it's just that awareness piece. Right.
Kevin Thompson [00:09:26]:
Where it's the most. Yeah. The most likely people you are to have an affair with are co workers first, friends second. So it's not uncommon in a friend group for two people to suddenly start having a favorite. Why? Because you're spending time together and you already have a connection, and there's a connection. And sometimes it can also be easy to kind of excuse because it's not completely unusual for y' all to be communicating in some way, and so it's easier to hide. So people sometimes will miss it. But then anybody you're spending a significant amount of time with is where the danger tends to be.
Kevin Thompson [00:10:03]:
It generally isn't the idea. You're driving down the road, you see somebody, and somehow that would be difficult, I would think, to look up in that way, unless you're intoxicated. But instead, I don't know. What.
Adrienne Neufeld [00:10:15]:
Well, I'm sure it happens, though.
Kevin Thompson [00:10:17]:
Yes.
Adrienne Neufeld [00:10:18]:
I'm saying it's probably rare.
Kevin Thompson [00:10:21]:
Anybody you're spending time with. Yeah. Is a danger. And workout is a great example. If you're going three to four days a week or every single day seeing the same group of people, that's great. That's fine. I have no problem with that. Don't stop.
Kevin Thompson [00:10:34]:
What I'm saying is be aware.
Blaine Neufeld [00:10:36]:
Yeah, yeah.
Kevin Thompson [00:10:36]:
Have boundaries.
Blaine Neufeld [00:10:38]:
Hold on. Can we make a positive on this? What if the couple works out together?
Kevin Thompson [00:10:42]:
It's one of the best things you can do to raise your marital satisfaction.
Adrienne Neufeld [00:10:45]:
Hey, you want to join me?
Blaine Neufeld [00:10:46]:
I might.
Kevin Thompson [00:10:47]:
It's one of the. One of the best things that you can do. Couples who work out together, because think about. They're getting all the. All the things that we're afraid of that might cause the affair they're now getting.
Adrienne Neufeld [00:10:58]:
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
Kevin Thompson [00:10:59]:
One thing you can do. Some people hate whenever I give this advice because they're like, how dare you talk about affairs in a positive way? And there's our clip. So they're like, how dare you talk about affairs in a positive way? But here's the thing. Let's learn. What is it that can tempt us? And are there ways that we can, in healthy ways, incorporate that into our marriage? Now what I'm not talking about. I'm not talking about. Let's watch the pornography. Learn and include that in our bedroom.
Kevin Thompson [00:11:29]:
Not talking about that one bit. What I am talking about is this. Hey, you know what? Sometimes people who work out start having affairs. Why? Because the endorphins, the change in the body, the encouragement. All right, what would it look like if we as a couple began to work out? Okay. Sometimes co workers have affairs. Why? Because they become emotionally close. Okay.
Kevin Thompson [00:11:47]:
How can we make sure that we are communicating with each other in very emotional ways? You know what? Sometimes as a guy or gal is traveling, they have an affair on the road because they're not going to get caught. The freedom that's there. Okay, what would it look like if we went on vacation on occasion and found that freedom and that fun that's actually there outside the control and confinements of work? Learn from those kind of things and then apply them in a positive way?
Blaine Neufeld [00:12:11]:
I was laughing because of a show. What?
Adrienne Neufeld [00:12:13]:
Modern Family.
Blaine Neufeld [00:12:13]:
Yeah, yeah.
Adrienne Neufeld [00:12:14]:
Where they role play.
Kevin Thompson [00:12:15]:
Oh, yes. Oh, yeah.
Adrienne Neufeld [00:12:16]:
They pretend they don't know each other. Hey, don't you have a question that kind of.
Blaine Neufeld [00:12:21]:
On pornography? No, no. Well, that. He mentioned that and that. Did it go there? Okay, I have lots of questions.
Kevin Thompson [00:12:27]:
Go ahead.
Blaine Neufeld [00:12:28]:
Which one should I go there.
Kevin Thompson [00:12:30]:
Go ahead. Okay, let's say, hey, they've been texted in.
Blaine Neufeld [00:12:32]:
Let's.
Kevin Thompson [00:12:32]:
Yeah, we're answering them.
Blaine Neufeld [00:12:33]:
Yeah. Okay, which one? Boundaries. Okay.
Kevin Thompson [00:12:36]:
This is compelling television right now.
Blaine Neufeld [00:12:37]:
Let's do this. Okay, what boundaries are not pornography related? I don't think. What boundaries are around phones? What boundaries around phones? Opposite sexual friendships. Sex friendships and social media actually protect a marriage instead of choke it out.
Kevin Thompson [00:12:53]:
Okay, so what are healthy boundaries as opposed to constrainment? And I feel like a lack of trust. Right. So I think couples have to have this conversation with each other. One thing that they need to do is they. So I have a book coming out. I don't know if y' all heard it. So next year, creation of us. One thing that we talk about now is you have to have the Vocabulary of us.
Kevin Thompson [00:13:21]:
So we talked about this before. What does vacation mean? Right. For one, vacation might mean non ending intimacy. For the other one, it's like I'm going to have total freedom, whatever. What does it mean? What does the word faithful mean? Okay, well if we don't define that word. So he could be thinking faithful means I never have sex with anybody else. She might be thinking faithful is you're trustworthy in everything that you do. Well, the next thing you know, he can be unfaithful and think that he's not or she can be unfaithful and her not believe that.
Kevin Thompson [00:13:55]:
So first of all, let's define that. So I would think faithfulness would mean that I am being trustworthy and honest in every communication I send with anybody to such an extent that if Jenny heard it, saw it, read it, she would feel no discomfort whatsoever and it would drive us closer together, not farther apart. So boundaries. It means it changes how you text people. It changes the frequency with which you text people. So years ago, I mean long time ago, kids were really little and there was an older woman in our church and like one night at like 10 o', clock, I'm sitting on the couch and she texts me a question and, and so she and I go back and forth texting on this and it just hit me, this could look bad, like late night multiple. Like if you just saw the phone bill back and forth, right? All these things. And so I just said, hey Jenny, FYI, hey, here's what's going on right now.
Kevin Thompson [00:14:54]:
Now was Jenny concerned about that? No, she didn't care one bit. But it was a way for her to go. Okay. And so to have that opency and trans openc have that openness and transparency I think is a positive thing. A couple things I do, you don't have to do them. You will never see me put my phone down on a table like that. If I'm with it now, if whenever I speak on a Sunday morning, it's not uncommon for me to put my phone down like that and leave because I'm not going to be in the room. And I don't want people just sitting there reading my text without me being present.
Kevin Thompson [00:15:25]:
But any other time I'm here, it's going to be up like that. Why? Because I never want to have Jenny. A sense of what are you hiding? Is he hiding something over there? And so we transfer phones easily. It's never hesitation for her to pick up my phone. Red flags to me if your spouse has a password that you don't know. Okay.
Adrienne Neufeld [00:15:47]:
That is strange.
Kevin Thompson [00:15:48]:
Why? If there's. Oh, you can't use my phone. If there's a nervousness. Oh, my God. Well, what are you hiding there? And so those are all things that I would be extremely aware of. Opposite sex friendships. To me, it's a very open, transparent kind of conversation. And as much as you can you pull your spouse into that.
Kevin Thompson [00:16:10]:
I have some friends that. It's a group chat. As we're communicating. It's a group chat that's happening. So it's not a direct kind of conversation, I don't think. I can't think of any. I can't think of any female apart from family members that I would text on a regular, ongoing basis. Just between the two of us.
Adrienne Neufeld [00:16:29]:
Yeah.
Kevin Thompson [00:16:30]:
It just doesn't seem. Seem right to me.
Adrienne Neufeld [00:16:33]:
Unnecessary.
Kevin Thompson [00:16:34]:
Yeah.
Adrienne Neufeld [00:16:34]:
Make it a group chat. Yeah, yeah. Unless you're planning like a surprise or something. Is my only thought.
Blaine Neufeld [00:16:39]:
That is where my mind went to.
Kevin Thompson [00:16:41]:
Yeah. Oh, yeah, yeah. What's the old line? This isn't mine. The old line is we have. In this family, we have surprises, but we don't have secrets.
Blaine Neufeld [00:16:48]:
Yeah, that's good. And I think that there's an element here, we're in ministry. Like it is on the forefront of my mind. Never, ever be in a situation where optically it looks bad.
Kevin Thompson [00:16:59]:
Yes.
Blaine Neufeld [00:17:00]:
Phone related, car related, office related, anything. But when I was in the business world, that never was a thought. I'm like, I'm doing business. This is an employee. I don't. I'm not thinking that, but I think we trick our minds into thinking that's fine. Like, I'm just trying to speak now to like that business guy or gal that's almost flirting with the line.
Kevin Thompson [00:17:23]:
Right.
Blaine Neufeld [00:17:24]:
And they know, and I'm praying for conviction there because they know deep down, don't flirt with the temptation of the line.
Kevin Thompson [00:17:30]:
Right.
Blaine Neufeld [00:17:30]:
Because I think it's too easy to belittle something. Oh, it's just an employee. It's just a friend, whatever. No, no, no. You're building a connection there one on one. That's not right.
Kevin Thompson [00:17:40]:
Yeah, I think. But I also think you want to trust your spouse on those things too.
Blaine Neufeld [00:17:43]:
Okay.
Kevin Thompson [00:17:44]:
Of if your spouse is uneasy about a co worker, don't just jump in and get defensive. But instead, okay, what's going on. And to recognize your spouse's uncomfortableness is a serious concern within your own life. It's not just that I want to be faithful to Jenny. I also want her to feel and know that I'm faithful to Her. It's not enough to be able to say, I've never done anything. Okay. I don't want her to feel in any way that I've done anything.
Kevin Thompson [00:18:15]:
Right. And so to recognize that I do have a responsibility. And many times it can be that, look, nothing is going on, but this is a sign that maybe we're disconnected in other ways or there could be old wounds that are here. It could be that, you know what? Look, her dad did this, and now there's a fear and to be sensitive toward that and, oh, I would never want to include. So what are some ways that we can go about? And then I also think there's a concept here of let's be practical about how we're living life. Look, so Jenny, in a business world, me in the ministry world, I would never be in a car alone with another woman that's not a family member ever again. I don't want to be driving down the road and a church member look over and judge that and wonder about that. I don't want to give them the wrong impression.
Kevin Thompson [00:19:00]:
I don't want to give me the wrong impression. All right. Jenny, back whenever she was working for a company, they would go on road trips, and there would have to be some of those things that would take place. And so how do you talk through that? With a certain level of openness, but also trust that is there. And to recognize different professions are going to have different protocols. But in the end, let's make sure that we're defining our boundaries. Here's where the most dangerous place comes in. Whenever it comes to an affair, it's a boundary that I've drawn that I then begin to waffle on.
Kevin Thompson [00:19:30]:
That's the dangerous spot. I've said I won't do this. Yeah. And now, well, this one time. No, no. There's a reason you said you wouldn't do it.
Blaine Neufeld [00:19:39]:
Yeah.
Kevin Thompson [00:19:39]:
And now that you're waffling, that is where the real danger spot begins to come.
Adrienne Neufeld [00:19:44]:
Right. Okay. So kind of leading from that, what if the. The line has been crossed? Right. And how do you forgive when your partner's addiction, whether porn, tv, or even work, has stolen your trust, how do you move forward?
Kevin Thompson [00:19:59]:
Yeah. So in Fringe Partners, Lovers, we talk about this a little bit. That that trust can. Can go away in two ways. Explosion or erosion. Erosion is just the slow drip of you not consistently doing what you're supposed to do. Explosion is. This is the addiction was revealed.
Kevin Thompson [00:20:16]:
Porn was seen on the computer. An affair happened. Right. You find out a financial lie. That's been happening this whole time, and immediately it's gone. But here's the good news. Whether it's gone by erosion or explosion, it doesn't matter so much as regarding how you recreate it. You recreate it brick by brick.
Kevin Thompson [00:20:37]:
It is this slow, methodical, doing exactly what you say, day after day after day after day to prove that once again, you are, in fact, trustworthy. And for the person that has broken the trust, it's gonna take a dogged determinism for you to say, this is so important to me that I don't expect you to trust me right now. I expect you to ask questions. I. I expect you to have doubts on occasion. But I'm going to prove to you over time that I am trustworthy again. And on the other person, it is this idea of, look, you don't deserve trustworthiness right now, I'm not gonna be foolish and pretending like we can just. I'm just gonna forgive.
Kevin Thompson [00:21:14]:
That means everything is right. No, no, I can forgive absolutely. But you have to re. Earn what this actually looks like. I'm gonna give you opportunities to do so. And then within all of that, to recognize that one of the best ways to rebuild it or gain trust is actually not in not making mistakes, but in how you deal with those mistakes. And so whenever we're dealing with somebody with an addiction, let's say they have a drinking problem, and, man, they had a drink, but whenever they did, the next day they called their sponsor and they did everything they're supposed to be. You're like, ah, that person's growing.
Kevin Thompson [00:21:50]:
They're figuring it out now. Okay, so how is it that I handle now the mistakes I make? Now, this isn't an idea of. My husband's had an affair that broke trust. Oh, he slipped up and had another one, but he was honest about it.
Blaine Neufeld [00:22:03]:
I'm not saying that at all justifying the sin or the.
Kevin Thompson [00:22:06]:
Yeah, but it is instead of, you know what? I lost my temper, and instead of ignoring that, I come back and I own that. Honey, I am so sorry with how this happened and what I said, and then to learn in some way. So it literally. How do you rebuild it? It can be rebuilt. And that's the beautiful thing. Here it is brick by brick. But here's how it can't be rebuilt. It can't be rebuilt through denial.
Adrienne Neufeld [00:22:31]:
Who's denying?
Kevin Thompson [00:22:32]:
In other words, I confessed it. Now we're not going to in any way explore why it happened, what happened. We're gonna pretend like, all right, I'm just Gonna wipe the slate clean. And let's go from here.
Blaine Neufeld [00:22:44]:
Restart.
Kevin Thompson [00:22:44]:
No. The conditions that allowed the broken trust to happen still exist. Literally. It is like an exploratory surgery. We have to now go in and clean out the wound. And it was painful. It's harmful, it feels like. But in the end, that's the way that's gonna lead to healing.
Adrienne Neufeld [00:23:02]:
And that's. Sorry. That's for, like, the person who made the mistake and the person on the other end of the mistake, too.
Kevin Thompson [00:23:08]:
Right.
Adrienne Neufeld [00:23:08]:
Like, it's like, let's say the husband cheated and the wife just like, okay, that happened. Let's. Let's move on. Right. It has to be both of them.
Kevin Thompson [00:23:17]:
That's denial. Okay, that's denial. Yeah. And here's the thing. He is 100% responsible for the choices that he made. In no way is she responsible. They are both responsible for whatever state of their marriage, what it was, and then somewhat as it goes, moving forward. And so in many cases, as you're dealing with what happened, you're going, look, this is a foolish Choice, and you're 100% responsible for it.
Kevin Thompson [00:23:43]:
Sometimes the marriage wasn't very good. That part, she can own her part in that. She's not owning the affair. She's only her part in that. Because we don't. What I tell couples all the time, I'm not asking you to go back to the way life was. I want it better than. I want it much better than that.
Adrienne Neufeld [00:23:59]:
And have you seen couples who've gone through affairs or, like, really hard times come out on the other side years later, better?
Kevin Thompson [00:24:06]:
I have. I have. Seriously, I could in my phone right now go with multiple couples who would say this. She would say, if the only way for us to have the marriage that we have now is for him to make the foolish choice that he made and for us to go through all that pain, I would choose it again. Now, obviously, they wouldn't want that. Can we have this without that? But if the only way for us to have this is to have gone through that, we would do it again.
Adrienne Neufeld [00:24:32]:
Because you have to go back and do the work now. You have to re. Yeah.
Blaine Neufeld [00:24:35]:
All the work that you hope to do. Prehab. To do before. Because as I'm having conversations with people and guys about some of these things, especially the pornography topic, it's like, there's. There's this sense of. It's so compartmentalized in his mind of, I did this.
Kevin Thompson [00:24:52]:
Yeah.
Blaine Neufeld [00:24:52]:
I said, sorry, I move on. It wasn't a connection relationship there. I don't feel anything towards that. And. And the excuse I often hear is, well, we weren't having any sex anyway.
Kevin Thompson [00:25:05]:
Yeah.
Blaine Neufeld [00:25:05]:
And it's like, hold up, hold up. That didn't. You're just trying to justify now your sin. You made a very selfish decision. You were weak. That I get. But what's the root cause of this desire that you're trying to fill up and then to learn how to communicate said desires. If we're talking just strictly physically, and the need for intimacy for him or her, whatever it is to communicate that.
Blaine Neufeld [00:25:31]:
Right. That's where, you know, our intestine level went way high because of this idea of, you know, you seem stressed. Are you okay? No. I don't know what's going on, but okay, we need to do that. Yeah. That's great then. Now we're moving past. But we learned how to communicate.
Blaine Neufeld [00:25:45]:
It's like, how do you get to the bottom of the actual pain and the reason that you kind of go there down an affair. What are we missing? You know? That's right.
Kevin Thompson [00:25:54]:
Yeah. You know, it's interesting regarding pornography and regarding pornography, generally speaking, whenever that comes to light, he feels like he understands it's wrong, but he feels like I haven't done anything to her. Yeah. This was my mistake. This is my thing.
Adrienne Neufeld [00:26:09]:
It won't affect her.
Kevin Thompson [00:26:09]:
It won't.
Adrienne Neufeld [00:26:10]:
In a way, that's what he thinks.
Blaine Neufeld [00:26:11]:
That's what he thinks.
Kevin Thompson [00:26:12]:
That has nothing to do with her. She thinks this is 100% about me and you've done this to me. And understandably. So, ironically, here's kind of what needs to happen. They need to switch perspectives. Pornography has very little to do if nothing to do with the spouse. Because here's what Jay Stringer's gonna say. Brilliant guest.
Kevin Thompson [00:26:32]:
You can go back and listen to an old episode. Jay Stringer is going to say, pornography is not about lust. It's about power. It's about unmet needs. And so if you remember the episode with Jay Stringer, he's the one who can take your search history if you had an inappropriate search history and without any other knowledge, he can predict with a great accuracy what your family of origin was like.
Blaine Neufeld [00:26:53]:
Right.
Kevin Thompson [00:26:54]:
Because pornography is an unhealthy way to cope with unmet needs. Many times that arose in the midst of your childhood. These are patterns. And so, ironically, the man, ironically, is somewhat right that this actually doesn't have anything to do with her. That's the perspective she needs to take. Difficult to recognize. This actually isn't about me. It's about his Unmet needs, and he doesn't know how to deal with those appropriately or properly.
Kevin Thompson [00:27:22]:
And so he deals with them through a sexual outlet that is unhealthy and destructive and dangerous. And if he doesn't figure this out, it's going to end us. But it's not about me.
Adrienne Neufeld [00:27:31]:
Oh, yeah, that's interesting.
Kevin Thompson [00:27:32]:
At the same time, he needs to recognize this is absolutely about her. I made vows to her. I made promises to her. I'm committed to her, and I am now stepping out of that relationship and meeting these needs in unhealthy ways. This is 100% about her. And so the irony to me is if they would switch mindsets, then you have a chance to get to growth. And then ultimately, anytime there's an addiction, affair, or adultery, abuse. I'm sorry, a professional needs to get involved.
Kevin Thompson [00:28:03]:
Yeah. You can come see us, and we will encourage you, give you some hope, and then we'll send you to a professional, because this is where somebody needs to get in and help you discover what are the needs underneath. What is unmet? What is it that you don't know how to cope with, you don't know how to deal with? You're now turning to this in an unhealthy way instead of turning to a healthy vulnerability, all those kind of things, and it really is this. I mean, you can look at it almost like a treatment of chemo, that it takes a long series of treatments, and then on the other side, you can literally, you can both individually be in a place that you never imagined, and then together have a relationship you never even begin to fathom. Which is why I don't call couples to regain what they had. I call them to go towards something that's far better.
Adrienne Neufeld [00:28:48]:
Ooh, redemption.
Kevin Thompson [00:28:50]:
Preach.
Adrienne Neufeld [00:28:51]:
That's the gospel.
Kevin Thompson [00:28:52]:
Oh, there you go. Look at it. Oh, wow.
Adrienne Neufeld [00:28:53]:
Hello.
Kevin Thompson [00:28:54]:
Suddenly we're in the Bible study podcast with AM Adrienne.
Blaine Neufeld [00:28:58]:
They should have us on.
Adrienne Neufeld [00:28:59]:
Anyway, do you have a question or you want me to go?
Blaine Neufeld [00:29:02]:
Go for it.
Adrienne Neufeld [00:29:03]:
So, on that topic, when sex is infrequent or one spouse avoids it all together, how can couples talk about intimacy without shaming or shutting each other down?
Kevin Thompson [00:29:11]:
Yeah. So infrequent sex is. Is troublesome here. Unless there's. Unless a few things are happening, obviously, pregnancy, the medical conditions that are present. Age begins to play into it.
Adrienne Neufeld [00:29:27]:
Past trauma.
Kevin Thompson [00:29:28]:
Trauma, yes. Trauma's an issue within it. No doubt. It's something that needs to be dealt with.
Adrienne Neufeld [00:29:33]:
Yeah. Yeah.
Kevin Thompson [00:29:34]:
So here's what we have to recognize. We have to recognize it is not friends, partners, and maybe lovers. That's not the title of the book. It is friends, partners and lovers, they are all present as an integral aspect of what's going on. Now, intimacy is more than just sex, but sex has to be a part of it. Unless there is some kind of extenuating circumstance of why it can't be. So whenever it is infrequent, that to me, is a yellow flag, not a red flag. It's a yellow flag that.
Kevin Thompson [00:30:04]:
All right, what's going on within the relationship? As we talked about before, let's begin to explore. Where is the friendship? Are we good friends? Where's the partnership? Does one of you feel taken advantage of? Have we developed into a parent child relationship? Because actually, in a parent child relationship, intimacy you don't want that shouldn't be present. Right? So let's begin to look at these things. We can look at past trauma. Are there things that are going on? Sometimes the couple has just failed to prioritize it, and they've drifted into these habits that are destructive. It's why whenever you cut screen time, whenever you take the TV or take screens out of the bedroom, and you're intentional about spending more time there, couples tend to sleep together more. The amount of sexual frequency greatly increased in the early months and even year of COVID Why people were home and bored. Yes.
Kevin Thompson [00:30:57]:
So part of it is. I mean, Gottman is gonna say a healthy sex life comes down to two things. Friends who prioritize it. Oh, he's just gonna say it's that simple. I'm gonna say friends who partners. But he's going to say it's that simple. So if there is no act of addiction, abuse, or adultery, if there isn't past trauma, if there's no extenuating circumstance that we need to explore. All right, let's strengthen our friendship and really prioritize.
Kevin Thompson [00:31:20]:
We're going to make this an important part of who we are. But oftentimes, because it is such an issue of vulnerability and intimacy, couples don't know how to have the conversation. And it's actually an area in which, I mean, listening to a podcast together can be useful. Reading a book, it's one of the areas where whenever it comes to sexual satisfaction, apart from active addiction, abuse, or adultery, you can have the quickest return on investment with counseling, because they see it all the time. And you walk in feeling so unusual and so ashamed about this, you don't know how to talk about with each other. And you walk in and you sit down, and the counselor can see the uncomfortableness and then encourage you into the conversation, and then it becomes easier. And once you can actually have a conversation, I would say the greatest indicator of sexual satisfaction for those couples who are generally healthy is can you talk about it? If you can't, you have very little chance. If you can.
Adrienne Neufeld [00:32:17]:
I like that.
Kevin Thompson [00:32:18]:
What can hold you back?
Blaine Neufeld [00:32:19]:
Because we love talking about it. And, like, I like it.
Kevin Thompson [00:32:22]:
Do you know. Do you. Do you both love talking about it?
Adrienne Neufeld [00:32:25]:
Yeah, starting to, but I used to not be.
Kevin Thompson [00:32:28]:
So what's. What's allowed that to happen? I'm flipping the Q and A. I'm asking y' all questions.
Adrienne Neufeld [00:32:33]:
Well, okay. So I grew up in a culture where I was like, oh, yeah, you know, very legalistic. So, no, no, no, no, no. Married.
Kevin Thompson [00:32:42]:
Go ahead.
Adrienne Neufeld [00:32:42]:
And. And, like, I. I believe, like, we should save sex before marriage and all that, but no one talked to me about it, like, even, like, leading up to it. So it was just, like. Just like, a shame thing for me. And so then I brought that in, and then, honestly, some. An older, wiser couple just, like, talked about it with us, and that was like, oh, we can talk about this.
Blaine Neufeld [00:33:06]:
So they made it very okay for you to be allowed to enjoy it.
Adrienne Neufeld [00:33:11]:
Yes.
Blaine Neufeld [00:33:11]:
Right. In the most beautiful pastoral way that they could have.
Adrienne Neufeld [00:33:15]:
Yeah. It wasn't vulgar or weird or gross or anything else.
Blaine Neufeld [00:33:17]:
Honoring each other, all those types of things.
Kevin Thompson [00:33:20]:
Yeah.
Adrienne Neufeld [00:33:21]:
Normalized it, I guess.
Kevin Thompson [00:33:22]:
That's cool.
Blaine Neufeld [00:33:23]:
And then I will say, too, it's like, we learned how to communicate needs. We talked about this already on the podcast. It's like, the idea that I should just expect it to be at my beck and call is just stupid and ridiculous. I have to make sure that we're seeing eye to eye. We're helping each other out. And, you know, you've talked about this is like, do the dishes in the morning, See what happens at night, you know, and it's this idea of. Of wanting to help each other and love the partnership type of thing. And we're starting to see that.
Adrienne Neufeld [00:33:51]:
And it became healthy conversation between us that I felt comfortable bringing it to other people who need to talk about it.
Kevin Thompson [00:33:59]:
Oh, yeah, yeah. This is the power. I mean, we have here marriage mentoring, where you have a couple who's just a little bit further down the road than you, and you're going through some very basic material, and it comes to the sex conversation, and everybody's uncomfortable, and you sit down the table, and the next thing you know, we're adults. We can actually talk about this. And that just eases the communication and.
Blaine Neufeld [00:34:19]:
I see now, too, thinking about this question, it's like the freedom that we've felt is so wonderful that we want to share that. We want to share the good news of that to the next couple. It's like, listen, guys, this is actually a beautiful thing. And I will also say, too, I think the best seasons of intimacy have been when we are both, like, chasing after spiritual maturity. Like, when we're growing in our faith has been the seasons where we feel very connected. Do you agree? Yep. Yeah.
Kevin Thompson [00:34:46]:
Yeah, yeah. So? Well, it's more powerful whenever you have a sense of identity that you're bringing to the bed than trying to find identity in the bed. That's where the danger becomes. And if we're not very careful, especially men, but not always we're not very careful, women sometimes can feel unloved. So now they're going to try to feel it in the midst of the act by giving this to her husband. And then it just changes what the whole point and purpose of intimacy really is. Instead of it being an expression of love, we're turning it into trying to be the source of it, and that makes it difficult.
Blaine Neufeld [00:35:23]:
It's so good. It's a whole episode. Okay, okay, here's a question. Let's move on from that. But it's maybe not moving on. Is separation ever a healthy step for a struggling couple? If so, how do you make sure that there's a path back together?
Kevin Thompson [00:35:40]:
Yeah. Yeah. There are times in which that needs to happen. Sometimes the conflict is so hot that the couple can't navigate it, and they really. They really kind of need a timeout, and that can even be a timeout from living together and one where one moves out. So no doubt there's an aspect of that. There's another aspect of. If there is active addiction, abuse, or adultery, I would not live with that person.
Kevin Thompson [00:36:10]:
Now, that's harder advice. Where we live in California, where housing is so expensive, it's much easier. My old life in Arkansas. But I would always say I would not live with an active addict. I would live with a recovering one, but not an active one. Because as long as you're living with an active addict, they are married to the drug and not you. And so you have to give them space and time to figure that out. And clearly, if there's any threat of physical or emotional abuse, you want to remove yourself from that situation.
Kevin Thompson [00:36:41]:
It doesn't mean the marriage is over. Physical abuse, I would say it probably is emotional. We got to be careful about addiction. Doesn't mean the marriage is over, but the marriage can't continue with them being addicted. And so we got to give them time to figure this out. So there are pathways back, especially if the tension is so high. All right, let's go our separate ways for a little bit. As we're doing counseling, as we're having these specific meeting times, a lot of times what couples will do is they'll start to date again as they're doing work.
Kevin Thompson [00:37:13]:
They're living apart.
Adrienne Neufeld [00:37:13]:
Like each other.
Kevin Thompson [00:37:14]:
Yes. Oh, yeah. I'm sorry.
Adrienne Neufeld [00:37:15]:
No, just. Claire.
Kevin Thompson [00:37:16]:
That also happens sometimes, too, in the other way. So, yes, Separation at times. But here would be my advice on that. Separation is a tool I would only want a professional to use. I would never recommend it to somebody apart from the aspects that I just laid out. And even then, many times, you're probably on the pathway to divorce if there's addiction or abuse. But I would want a professional to be overseeing this process to make sure. Because here's what can happen is Kelvin's like, hey, we're just going to take a time out.
Kevin Thompson [00:37:49]:
And rather than dealing with the issues, they start kind of feeling the freedom of. The tension's not as high anymore, and I feel better. And they get used to living their own lives, and then it's just a pathway to divorce. And unfortunately, sometimes divorce is a necessary outcome, but in our culture, we leverage it far too often. Right?
Adrienne Neufeld [00:38:09]:
Yeah, that's good.
Blaine Neufeld [00:38:10]:
You got one, babe.
Kevin Thompson [00:38:11]:
Let's do one more.
Adrienne Neufeld [00:38:12]:
Okay. Okay. Okay. How do you encourage your spouse in their walk with God without sounding like their parent or preacher?
Kevin Thompson [00:38:20]:
Well, I mean, I can sound like their preacher, actually.
Adrienne Neufeld [00:38:23]:
I guess you can, but not their spouse.
Kevin Thompson [00:38:27]:
Yes. Yes, I think. I mean, you know, this goes back to stay in your lane, right? What's mine, what's theirs, what's God's. So what's mine? My own spiritual life is mine. How I operate, how I act, whether or not I'm in worship, whether or not I'm in Bible study, whether or not. Whether or not I'm in the midst of a healthy community serving others. So first and foremost, I have to do that, because here's what can happen. Somebody specifically, with an anxious attachment.
Kevin Thompson [00:38:50]:
Remember, anxious attachment. We tend to think we are being held back because other people aren't doing what they're supposed to do. So it wouldn't be. Let's go. Gender stereotypes here. Let's go. A woman with an anxious attachment who is like, I want my husband to lead. I want my husband to do this, I want my husband to do that, and I Want our family to be this, and he's not doing that, but she is not either.
Kevin Thompson [00:39:11]:
And so she's taking no responsibility for her own spiritual life, thinking, as soon as he's ready, then we're going to do it. And then all the blame's on him. So that's never the way to do it. You are fully responsible for your own relationship with God. So handle what you control. Control what belongs to you. Now, how can I begin to influence the partner, the spouse? How can I influence them? I can encourage them. I'm modeling for them how to go about it.
Kevin Thompson [00:39:36]:
But I never want to nag. I never want to guilt, I never want to shame. I'm constantly praying God put relationships in their lives, open their eyes. And I have story after story after story of couples who one was engaged with the church, the other wasn't. And then a moment came in which it happened. So you never want to turn it into, though, like a competition for attention of. So let's go just gender stereotype. Let's say she wants him to be more engaged, and yet he's getting very jealous of all the time she's spending.
Kevin Thompson [00:40:16]:
And every time he turns around, she's reading the Bible, So there's never any connection between the two of them. And then he could actually start looking at her faith as a barrier, as the danger between the two of them. So you want to make sure that you're still connecting and modeling and loving and being the best spouse that you possibly can be, all while praying God, open their eyes. And I think that's straight out of Corinthians in which that's the case of how we go about that.
Blaine Neufeld [00:40:42]:
So on a deep question, how, if there's been a lot of tension in a marriage to the point where there's potential divorce, it's at a. And one is really leaning into God. And I can see them healing and becoming this person. And. And now it's getting to the point where their eyes are very open as to how bad it was, but also how bad she still is or he still is, right where now there's almost a resentment. And it's like, why don't you see it? How can't you see it? And it's like a frustration.
Kevin Thompson [00:41:17]:
Oh, yeah.
Blaine Neufeld [00:41:17]:
What's the suggestion? Encouragement.
Kevin Thompson [00:41:20]:
I see it all the time. And I think in that moment, you just have to recognize as the temptation is to be frustrated at your spouse for not seeing it. Recognize you didn't see it. You went this whole time that way. So you should have great compassion for them. And a gratitude that God has opened your eyes. And I think to recognize that. That this is a gift from God that he's given me.
Kevin Thompson [00:41:42]:
Not that I suddenly have done this and now you need to do what I'm doing, but, oh, my goodness, thank you, God, for what you've given to me. And then you begin to recognize, I don't know why God is drawing me close to him at this moment, why this is the season of my life, that my eyes are open. But either if this marriage succeeds, I'm going to be such a better husband because of it, or if she leaves me, I'm going to be so much better equipped to deal with that pain than what I would otherwise. Here's what I often. I often see from a woman's perspective. A woman going through a painful marital situation. A woman tends to run toward God and gets better for it. And many times men will run away from God.
Kevin Thompson [00:42:28]:
Sometimes what happens is when the relationship is bad and let's say specifically an affair has happened or something and he's gotten caught, sometimes that will cause him to run to God and man. He's on fire. She's done. She's prayed for years. I've had this conversation a million times with wives specifically. Look, I know it's not fair, it's unfortunate. But here's the thing. Notice this.
Kevin Thompson [00:42:52]:
What you have prayed for for years has finally come true. Why don't you give this another year to see Is it going to be lasting? Now, if the pain's too much, that's your choice. You're free to do what you want to do here. But I would hate for you at the moment your prayers are finally answered, for you to give up. What would it look like if you stuck in it to some extent. And so those are very common outcomes.
Blaine Neufeld [00:43:15]:
And I'm thinking about that side of it where it's like, she's been hurt. I'm thinking about an alcoholic situation where he found freedom from that. And over the next seven years, he's just on fire for Christ. But there was 10 years prior to that where it was hurtfulness to her.
Kevin Thompson [00:43:33]:
Oh, yeah.
Blaine Neufeld [00:43:33]:
And so now suddenly he has this breakthrough and there's like a, that's not fair. I'm still the one that's hurt. And he's off doing this and loving it, and it's just like, come along, come along. No, I am. So what does she need to kind of work through in order to get through that moment?
Kevin Thompson [00:43:48]:
Yeah. Well, she rightfully does not believe him.
Blaine Neufeld [00:43:52]:
Right.
Kevin Thompson [00:43:53]:
And he needs to recognize that. That she shouldn't believe me. How many times have I been fired up about something and haven't followed through? That's a part of the whole problem, and so I'm going to outlast that. That's what he needs to be thinking, and she needs to think. All right. I'll see. I mean, I wouldn't just. Oh, yeah.
Kevin Thompson [00:44:10]:
Automatically believe. Let's just stand back. Now, you don't want to douse his faith or anything like that with water, but it is this idea of. Look, you can be honest, honey. You've been fired up about a million things. Remember this business deal, Remember this thing, and remember that thing. I just need to see it over time. And I believe in you.
Kevin Thompson [00:44:28]:
I want this for you. And if this happens, I'm going to be here. But don't expect me at this moment to assume again. We can't just wipe the slate clean, pretend like everything's fine. We got to deal with the issues.
Blaine Neufeld [00:44:41]:
I love it.
Adrienne Neufeld [00:44:42]:
Yeah.
Kevin Thompson [00:44:43]:
Good stuff. All right. We're changing the odds. That's what we're doing. Brought to you by Coke Zero. What if I keep. You think if I keep on doing this, eventually they'll send me something. Some pro V1s, maybe with coca Cola on the side? Maybe that's a possibility.
Adrienne Neufeld [00:44:59]:
We can pray.
Kevin Thompson [00:44:59]:
If you have any Coca Cola connection, pass this on to your friends. Call Warren Buffett, let him know. Hey, you can always text marriage to 56316. We do these episodes probably once a quarter, and so we'd be more than happy to answer your question. Marriage to 56316. Until next time, have a great day.