Kevin Thompson [00:00:00]:
Hey, welcome back to Change the odds of podcast. Marriage and family were never meant to be a game of chance. Blaine and Adrienne. Here we are.
Blaine Neufeld [00:00:05]:
Here we are. Another day.
Kevin Thompson [00:00:06]:
How are we doing this morning? How are we filming? Taping. Taping. What decade is this? We are filming about an hour earlier than normal and on a different day than normal. So this is a whole different schedule we're running.
Adrienne Neufeld [00:00:18]:
Yeah, I'm feeling it a little bit flustered.
Blaine Neufeld [00:00:20]:
It's interesting morning routines, how important they can be. Because on the other days that we do this.
Kevin Thompson [00:00:26]:
Yes.
Blaine Neufeld [00:00:26]:
It's a different routine, and it's cost us some stability in our emotions.
Kevin Thompson [00:00:31]:
And you think some stability cost you stability.
Adrienne Neufeld [00:00:34]:
I like the idea, politically said.
Kevin Thompson [00:00:36]:
So it is this idea of whenever you have something in a routine, you know how to prepare.
Blaine Neufeld [00:00:41]:
Yes.
Kevin Thompson [00:00:42]:
And now on a day like this, it's very easy to walk in and think, oh, I'm prepared, and you're ready to go. And hypothetically, this could be the second take. I don't know.
Blaine Neufeld [00:00:49]:
They'll never know.
Kevin Thompson [00:00:50]:
It's possible. It's possible. We got a couple minutes in and.
Adrienne Neufeld [00:00:54]:
We'Ve said, ah, let's try it.
Blaine Neufeld [00:00:58]:
But that's the fun.
Kevin Thompson [00:00:59]:
All right. How's it. How's. How's. How's the school day? School.
Adrienne Neufeld [00:01:02]:
School is good.
Kevin Thompson [00:01:03]:
Yeah, School is good.
Blaine Neufeld [00:01:04]:
School is good there. I think the kids are finding the rhythm.
Kevin Thompson [00:01:08]:
That's.
Blaine Neufeld [00:01:08]:
That part's fun. Yeah, we're finding a rhythm. Like, we got the fall season here, and it's going. The church is busy, everything's busy again, but it's a good busy. So everybody's good.
Kevin Thompson [00:01:19]:
Yeah, Yeah. I got one back at college, and so, yeah, it's a much smoother routine now at my house a little later. Demanding. Especially. Especially with the one that went to college. It's much quieter.
Adrienne Neufeld [00:01:34]:
Yeah.
Blaine Neufeld [00:01:34]:
More time for golf.
Kevin Thompson [00:01:35]:
Yeah, that's exactly right. So what are we talking about today?
Blaine Neufeld [00:01:39]:
Well, we wanted to talk about some differences between emotional marriages and logical marriages and the person vice versa. Yeah, you know. You got the question sent to you. So what was.
Adrienne Neufeld [00:01:50]:
Yeah, it's like he's logical and I'm emotional. And sometimes that causes tension in our marriage because it feels like we can't communicate, I guess, or like it feels like they're ignoring me or they don't care about how I feel. And maybe I think stereotypically, maybe men are more logical, but not always the case.
Kevin Thompson [00:02:12]:
Yeah.
Adrienne Neufeld [00:02:13]:
Is that true?
Kevin Thompson [00:02:14]:
That's what people think. Hey, that's what men would like to show. That's what men Would like to say, right? So, I mean, one of the talks I have been giving, we did a date night. Y' all did a date night here. I just got to show up to speak. Y' all prepared it all and had a great time, right? And so we did this little talk on head, heart, and gut. And so the concept is that all three of those are important for the human experience. God made all three of those part of who we are.
Kevin Thompson [00:02:42]:
Sin, however, kind of shattered the wholeness. And so now all of us imagine your head, your heart, and your gut are all out on the table. All of us will now reach for one of those first. And that's how we lead. That's our lead style is either with our head or heart of gut. So head is really this idea of information, ideas. Right. I'm a head guy.
Kevin Thompson [00:03:01]:
I mean, clearly I'll quote what's going on and statistics and all these kinds of things, right? Gut is more action. It's what are we going to do? How are we going to go about this? This is Jenny. Jenny is led by her gut. And so I can sometime get stymied in not having all the information. And then Jenny comes along, and that pushes us in to action just at the same time. There could be times, rare in which maybe she would act a little faster than what she should. And I can be over there going, hang on. You don't have the full information of what needs to happen, but then you have the idea of the heart.
Kevin Thompson [00:03:38]:
And so if gut is action and head is thinking or ideas, the heart is now emotion. Where's the feeling of what's going on? And the general stereotype that I hear all the time, because whenever we do a date night like that, you know, we'll do a Q and A people text in questions. I'm on the road, and I hear this all the time. I hear, hey, Kevin from the wife, I'm emotional. He's logical. Help. We can't figure this out. And the assumption is that this is what happens in most marriages.
Kevin Thompson [00:04:10]:
Now, I think some would recognize. Hey, all right. There's these outliers where it's flipped, but the assumption is women are more emotional, men are more logical, and that's how God brought us together.
Blaine Neufeld [00:04:22]:
Yeah.
Kevin Thompson [00:04:23]:
Are you ready for this?
Blaine Neufeld [00:04:24]:
Yeah, go ahead.
Kevin Thompson [00:04:25]:
Yeah. Sorry.
Blaine Neufeld [00:04:26]:
No.
Kevin Thompson [00:04:27]:
No scientific proof.
Blaine Neufeld [00:04:28]:
Oh, none.
Adrienne Neufeld [00:04:30]:
Interesting.
Kevin Thompson [00:04:31]:
There is no scientific proof that women are more emotional and men are more logical.
Adrienne Neufeld [00:04:37]:
I can get on board with that because I don't feel like I'm.
Blaine Neufeld [00:04:40]:
I feel like I'm logical, but you are emotional. Too. Yeah, but you are logical.
Kevin Thompson [00:04:45]:
More.
Blaine Neufeld [00:04:46]:
More logical than me. And I'm more. I would be.
Adrienne Neufeld [00:04:49]:
But you're not. Oh, I don't know. I don't know.
Blaine Neufeld [00:04:50]:
Maybe this is your point. It's like this idea of there's a little bit of all of it. Right. And. And my mind was going to the fact of have. Have men been trained to think that they're logical, therefore I can't be vulnerable. Right. Because one of the big things that I love doing when we're chatting to guys about during coffee and all this stuff is like, when we actually get to the root of it and we start getting emotional, we start growing in those conversations.
Blaine Neufeld [00:05:14]:
But they get so stuck in the head in the logic of, no, I'm supposed to be strong, I'm supposed to be tough. I'm supposed to be this. I have to lead. No, no, no, we're going to lead with our heart. We can do that too, right?
Kevin Thompson [00:05:25]:
No, that's great. Yeah. So I found one study out there, Stanford, in, like, I think 2017.
Adrienne Neufeld [00:05:33]:
In.
Kevin Thompson [00:05:33]:
Which they said there is some differences in the brains of men and women, is what Stanford was saying. Here's. I think the first thing to recognize, generally speaking, what we share in common as human beings is far greater than any gender differences that actually do exist. Clearly there are differences. We're not going to buy in to this whole idea that's out there today. Male and female really doesn't matter and that kind of thing. No, we believe God created us to be different. There's a reason for that.
Kevin Thompson [00:06:01]:
Those now complement one another. They should not be in competition. If we're not very careful, we can turn that into competition. It is. I mean, not to be crass in any way. Just look at the male body. Look at the female body. Differences exist, and that's for our benefit.
Kevin Thompson [00:06:15]:
Here's what tends to happen. I think. I think outside the church. We're in a day in which you almost can't say that differences are real, that they do actually exist. Here's the problem. Inside the church, I think what we often do is we actually overstate the differences. And what we're actually doing is calling on cultural expectations from 50 years ago instead of God's actual design for us. If you look from a biblical standpoint, there's not a lot of difference of the commands and the expectations that God places on a husband and a wife.
Kevin Thompson [00:06:52]:
There could be some nuances that are definitely there, but there's not a lot of. Here's the very clear state of differences as Much as I think when God created Adam and Eve and then Eve now was the helpmate, was the one that would have the opposite strengths of what Adam would actually have within that. You don't even have this idea of she as a female completely will always have the opposite strengths of he is a male. And that's going to go on forever. It is, I think, these two different people that actually begin to exist. Stanford, here's the one thing that the Stanford study did say or article did say. It's possible that maybe women's brains do a little bit better in integrating and men's brains might compartmentalize a little bit more. And again, this is one study, so we don't want to overstate it.
Kevin Thompson [00:07:39]:
If that's the case, then we could see how there would be times in which women might have more access to emotion even as they're being logical. And men might be able to be emotional about one issue and not let that fold over into what the next issue is. So conceivably that's what's going on from a biological standpoint. But I think the bigger picture is this, as far as we understand biology is there's not a predisposition. Blaine, you're a man, you're going to be more logical. Aiden or a woman, you're going to be more emotional. Instead it's this idea of head, heart and gut out on the table and all of us pick up one first. And so in any given relationship I think you could have where the man leads with the heart and so the man is quicker to feel and to bring that into the decision making process.
Kevin Thompson [00:08:31]:
Whereas the woman could be much more give me some ideas or hey, I already kind of have a gut, I know what we're gonna do next. And so in any given relationship this can be flipped. And so here's what I think is so important and I remind our guys of this all the time whenever they preach because it's very easy if you don't study this on a regular basis to take whatever's happening in your relationship and just assume that's true in every relationship. So I'll be listening to one of our guys preach a sermon and they'll be like, oh, don't you know that how emotional women are compared to men? And I'm out there going, no, actually that's your relationship. That's not every relationship. So we tend to overstate those differences from a biological standpoint.
Blaine Neufeld [00:09:16]:
Yeah. And that's just because we kind of know that. I'm curious as to two things I'm curious about the personalities in terms of head, heart and gut. Right. I'm trying to discover like which one do you guys think that I lead with? Just work on myself here a little bit. But secondly, what happens when the spouse and the spouse don't understand what the other one's leading with? Right. And that's like gotta cause fireworks, gotta cause frustration. I just even think about this morning and little ways that we're interacting of her assuming I know things and I'm leading over here, doing it this way and she's got 90 things in her head.
Blaine Neufeld [00:09:53]:
I'm not thinking that way. And then there causes a frustration.
Kevin Thompson [00:09:56]:
Yeah, right.
Blaine Neufeld [00:09:57]:
So.
Kevin Thompson [00:09:57]:
Oh, no doubt, no doubt. And that I think that self discovery of. Okay, how do I lead? Is a very important one. As a matter of fact, in all likelihood, by the time this airs, we will have a resource so you can look at the comments. We'll have a resource that people will be able to go to and kind of walk through a discussion even over voice text to help them discover. Do I lead with my head, my heart or my gut? Right. As we're filming this. I don't have the ability to tell you where to go about that, but I think it's an important self discovery as I began to understand.
Kevin Thompson [00:10:30]:
Okay, Kevin, you really are an idea based kind of person. I'm almost even scared to call it logic because all of this has some logical elements to it. It is the ideas, the outside sources. I don't trust my feelings as much, I don't trust my instinct as much. So I lead in this way. So there's a strength that's there. Also a great deal of weaknesses and to recognize how I need other people to come around me because, because again, Dan Siegel is going to talk about this Head, heart and gut in the end is going to be wholeness. When you get all of that on the table and in a healthy way, that's wholeness.
Kevin Thompson [00:11:07]:
Well, how do we make a whole decision? How do we have whole lives? How do we have a whole marriage? You need all three of those. It can't just be. All I bring to the table is my head and I leave my heart and gut out. And I expect you all now to bring those other two pieces and whatever way it can't be that way. I have to learn to, to engage the more fullness of who I actually am. And I think that's the great potential that's in. This is whenever you hear, all right, I'm emotional, he's logical. Okay, then allow him to influence you to where you can better recognize actually how much you use logic and maybe don't recognize it.
Kevin Thompson [00:11:44]:
And then how can you assist him to bring his heart out onto the table?
Adrienne Neufeld [00:11:49]:
Yeah, how do you do that?
Kevin Thompson [00:11:50]:
Yeah, well, yeah, I think there's some processes within that. One is just to stop, stop and having an awareness. So it's basically like this head, heart and gut. It means every time I'm going to reach for my head, just naturally. That's just the. It just comes natural to me. It's comfortable. It's the easiest pathway.
Kevin Thompson [00:12:11]:
It takes me to pause, to go, okay, what do I feel? I think I've used the illustration before here. When Jenny and I were moving to California, making that whole decision. We're going on walks, we're having these discussions, all those things, and I'm constantly asking, what do you think? What do you think we should do? What do you think? What do you think? She is constantly saying, hey, what do you think we're going to do? So even in that subtlety notice, we're never asking, hey, what do you feel?
Adrienne Neufeld [00:12:40]:
Right.
Kevin Thompson [00:12:42]:
We're never looking at the emotions behind it. We just naturally look at the ideas and the actions. Well, that's fine. That's great. Even that we begin to balance each other out automatically because we come from different approaches. Some couples may not. Some couple might. I think the two of you, I think both of you are very gut oriented.
Kevin Thompson [00:13:01]:
And so now you're going to have. There's going to be some nuance within that, but that's great. There's a strength that's within that. But that means you've got to be a little bit more intentional to bring in. It means that y' all can be a very action oriented couple, which is great. But is it possible that on occasion you're flying past the emotions of yourselves and then also possibly other people. Is it conceivable that on occasion you can go into a decision where just a pause in the step could have given you just a little bit more information to maybe get? I don't know. I don't know y' all well enough.
Kevin Thompson [00:13:35]:
Here we have, man, now I'm getting nosy here. Is it possible that sometimes y' all start doing something and you really actually didn't have a clarified plan? That one more beat of, hey, here are the three things we're going to accomplish first. Now let's go. That maybe that would assist in some way. And so I think it's important for couples to begin to just first stop and recognize how Do I tend to show up? How does my spouse tend to show up? What are some questions we can begin to ask to bring the fullness of who we are out? So one thing Jenny and I have to be intentional about is to ask ourselves and each other, what do you feel that just doesn't come naturally to us in any way.
Adrienne Neufeld [00:14:20]:
So then what might be, like, an everyday conflict that a couple would struggle with if one is more gut, one is more heart.
Blaine Neufeld [00:14:30]:
Yeah, well, I was even. Yeah, yeah. Like, I'm analyzing our lives right. When you said gut. Gut. I say a little bit. Yes. Think she's a little bit more logical, Far more logical than I am, but she still is okay to go with the flow and let's find out type of thing.
Blaine Neufeld [00:14:47]:
When we moved, I was like, it feels right. It feels right. We should go for it. And she's like, well, hold on. Have we thought about. And it. And it. And I also feel like, how do.
Blaine Neufeld [00:14:57]:
How do we develop? Because our relationship has come so far in terms of our communicating is. I say things like, you know, like, what do you feel to kind of draw out the emotion of it? Or, you know what I'm saying?
Kevin Thompson [00:15:11]:
You're.
Blaine Neufeld [00:15:11]:
You're far more vulnerable emotionally now than you were.
Kevin Thompson [00:15:15]:
But I.
Blaine Neufeld [00:15:15]:
Yes, three years ago. But I'm trying to, like, help the listener understand. How do I get this right? Because my questions are too. It's like, what if they're both head. Head. They're both hard. Heart. They're.
Blaine Neufeld [00:15:25]:
Or, you know, and then both gut. Gut. Or all the vice versas and all the things. Because. Yeah, to your question, there are going to be conflicts, but you're saying. I'm just trying to analyze.
Kevin Thompson [00:15:38]:
So let's go with the example you gave was somebody's more led by their gut. So somebody is more action oriented married to somebody who's more feeling oriented. I think this is probably a lot of relationships. Right. Here's the danger. The danger could be on one hand is that the gut person could be moving at such a pace that the heart person feels dismissed and not seen, not connected in any way. And almost a feeling like you care more about the action than you do about the person. About me.
Kevin Thompson [00:16:10]:
Now, where can that come in in a very beneficial way if the couple is thoughtful? So let's say she's gut and he's heart. So they can then come in and she can recognize, hey, sometimes I act, sometimes I move faster than the people around me. Actually, they can feel bulldozed. So she can go to him and say, hey, how is it that I can make sure that I don't bulldoze these people what's going on? Because sometimes he, being more heart oriented, might have more awareness of what's going on around her than she might. Or he can come to her and give some insight. Hey, honey, I love you, man. I think this is probably a wise way to go or we'll see. But have we paused to think about these kind of things? So I think as a spouse, I have to lean on Jenny and to recognize where her strengths lie, where my weaknesses are, and invite her into that.
Kevin Thompson [00:17:07]:
If it's always on her to initiate what I'm lacking, that's a bad place to be.
Adrienne Neufeld [00:17:14]:
Well, that feels like an attack.
Kevin Thompson [00:17:15]:
It can.
Adrienne Neufeld [00:17:16]:
It can.
Kevin Thompson [00:17:17]:
But if I get used to calling her into that, then even whenever I forget to call her into that, when she calls herself into it, it feels natural. It's like, oh, yeah, yeah. This is how we operate. This is what we do. Right. And then vice versa. On if you have somebody who's more gut oriented, somebody who's more heart oriented, it can sometimes feel to the gut person that the heart person is dragging them back, holding them back because the action they want to move and this person is still processing. Right.
Kevin Thompson [00:17:46]:
What's the emotion that's underneath and the feelings that are underneath? And so to recognize that feeling is going to be a natural feeling. Now, how can we get on the same page and steal, still be that Arkansas comes out every now and then, still move forward without being cold while doing it?
Blaine Neufeld [00:18:08]:
That's kind of.
Adrienne Neufeld [00:18:08]:
That's the big question. That's in my brain too.
Blaine Neufeld [00:18:10]:
Right. Say it then.
Kevin Thompson [00:18:11]:
Yeah.
Blaine Neufeld [00:18:11]:
What's.
Adrienne Neufeld [00:18:12]:
Oh, I think I just did.
Blaine Neufeld [00:18:14]:
Example.
Adrienne Neufeld [00:18:15]:
Yeah. Like, how can you do that without, like, causing a trigger and being like, you're logical and I need you to be more emotional.
Kevin Thompson [00:18:23]:
Yeah. No, yeah. I think you don't say it that way because that's an attack. So.
Adrienne Neufeld [00:18:29]:
Oh, sorry for this morning then.
Blaine Neufeld [00:18:31]:
Oh, you don't say it, though. But even can I say that? Because I think the thing, the verbal, emotional expression this morning was an attack, but. Because. Yeah, I think the way you said it was attack.
Kevin Thompson [00:18:48]:
It felt. I said, you're like, notice this. Notice this for a second. Here's what I think is really important. It was an attack. It is now. Telling her what her intention was. It's not fair.
Kevin Thompson [00:19:01]:
You don't know what her intention was. It felt like an attack. Well, now she can't debate that. You're actually revealing your emotions. Here's what it felt like to me. So let's notice the difference right here. I think this is a brilliant kind of concept right here of how subtle of a difference that is, but how important it is. So I'm not going to define you and what you did and what you think.
Kevin Thompson [00:19:24]:
I don't even fully know. I can tell you what it was like on the other side of you.
Adrienne Neufeld [00:19:29]:
Yes, it felt.
Kevin Thompson [00:19:30]:
It felt like to me that, that felt attacking. And so then you can own that goal. The last thing I'd want to do is attack you. So how can I communicate that better the next time? And now you're each owning your own part instead of what tends to happen. This is old school. Stay in your lane. Right. Control what's mine, influence what's theirs, accept what's God's.
Kevin Thompson [00:19:49]:
What we tend to do is swerve into somebody else's lane. So I'm going to tell you what you did, what your intention was, how bad your heart is, all these. No, no, no. Yeah, control what you control. Here's what it felt like to me now, what it feel like to you.
Blaine Neufeld [00:20:01]:
And can I say what I think our maturity has gotten to. The fact that the idea was I saw it as a cry for help.
Kevin Thompson [00:20:09]:
There you go, there you go.
Blaine Neufeld [00:20:10]:
So because I didn't take it personally, I knew I wasn't the best at the scenario.
Adrienne Neufeld [00:20:16]:
But you weren't the worst.
Blaine Neufeld [00:20:17]:
Wasn't the worst. Nor do I know. I don't. I know you're not out to get out get me. You're just. I was asking for help and you're saying, can you just please help me? So then I think I told him.
Adrienne Neufeld [00:20:29]:
He'S very unaware of what's going on. And I said, I wish you could live in my head so that you could just know what I was thinking.
Kevin Thompson [00:20:36]:
Oh, yeah, yes, that's totally fair. I mean that's completely fair of that idea of we see the world differently. I wish you could see it just for a moment the way I actually see it. I told Jenny, I said yesterday. So she had a group of people over and I came home last night and I don't remember what the issue was, but there was something, some kind of, you need to do this thing, which is great. And I said, you, oneness is leaking out.
Adrienne Neufeld [00:21:05]:
Your oneness.
Kevin Thompson [00:21:06]:
Oneness. In other words, enneagram one. So that idea of you got a million things in your head of what we have to do and so some of it started leaking out to me.
Adrienne Neufeld [00:21:16]:
I'm sure she loved that comment.
Kevin Thompson [00:21:17]:
No, it was totally fine. It wasn't a critique. It was just awareness of, look at what's happening here.
Adrienne Neufeld [00:21:23]:
A little snarky, but that's fine.
Kevin Thompson [00:21:25]:
And then I got to work, and then we started doing things. But the thing. Whenever I hear that, whenever I hear Jenny say three things that we need to do, and I feel overwhelmed by the amount of stuff I was just told we need to do, I'm reminded that is a tenth of her list, because I know that inside her brain, thousands of things, all this other stuff. And so it's an insight into what's going on.
Adrienne Neufeld [00:21:49]:
So then how could I have said it better? Instead of being like, you are so unaware, could I do I say, like, in that moment in there, I felt really unseen?
Kevin Thompson [00:22:02]:
Oh, yeah.
Adrienne Neufeld [00:22:02]:
And I know you were doing your best at what you were doing, but I just, like, it's more of a me problem instead of a him problem.
Kevin Thompson [00:22:09]:
No, no. I, I, I think first of all, and. And Blaine. It sounds like Blaine did this in the conversation, which is what feels like an attack is actually a protest. Right? We'll go back to Sue Johnson's language. It's a protest. Hey, I'm not being seen over here. Right.
Kevin Thompson [00:22:25]:
And so he heard it in that way. He recognized it. I think the next step for you is whenever you feel. And the first feeling is he is so unaware. Right. First of all, notice that a little bit of anxious attachment. So we're gonna share this anxious attachment. And the way our brains are always gonna work is if they would figure it out, we would be better.
Adrienne Neufeld [00:22:49]:
That is logical.
Kevin Thompson [00:22:53]:
And so here's one thing I recognize. Anytime I think toward Jenny, toward the kids, toward co workers, toward friends, toward bosses, whoever, anytime, my first thought is, here's what they need to do that needs to trigger in my head now. All right, hang on. That's probably anxious attachment. And the anxious attachment is the way I figured out how to solve this. That's what's wrong. The problem is very real. Now.
Kevin Thompson [00:23:18]:
What's the actual problem? So here's what I think could be the next step for you is next time that your first thought is, he's so unaware to pause and go, you know what? He is unaware. Why we're different people. How can I help him know what's going on in my brain right now? Because I know he wants to help me. And so then it becomes instead of, hey, you're so unaware, which, I mean, you can playfully do that kind of thing. Instead it becomes, hey, honey, I need help.
Adrienne Neufeld [00:23:42]:
Right?
Kevin Thompson [00:23:44]:
Here's what I'm seeing right now, here's what's playing in my head right now. And I can feel my anxiety rising. I can feel the tension rising. I can feel frustration and friction. Hey, here's what. I would love it if you could do these things and basically think about this. This is an old illustration we've used as well. You're bringing what's underneath the table and you're putting it out on the table.
Kevin Thompson [00:24:05]:
Right? And so that then allows him to see, oh, I now see what's going on. How can I run to you? Because here's the irony in this situation to me, in some relationships, not yalls, but in some relationships that are unhealthy, that you're so unaware, that feels like an attack causes defensiveness, which then actually leads to the exact opposite response of what the person wants. Because they're going to see you less. Because now they're. It can actually cause them to look more at themselves instead of actually see you. Whereas if you have the ability now to say, hey, here's what I'm in need of, well, then he actually has a greater likelihood of not focusing on himself because he doesn't have to get defensive, which means he's actually going to run to you and give you the very thing that you want.
Blaine Neufeld [00:24:53]:
Like, literally my questions were. Or I'm so grateful that our marriage is. Is positively increasing into the point of we can say something like that. And the fight doesn't happen. It stops there. We get to talk about it because it's a safe environment. It's like, okay, I hear you. What can I do next time? Not just that one time.
Blaine Neufeld [00:25:15]:
No, you need to put the dish there. Like, no, it's a bigger conversation. I need to feel the environment more. I get that. But we're willing to have that conversation. Too many. I pray this for every marriage is like, this is fun. Because tomorrow is going to be better than yesterday.
Blaine Neufeld [00:25:30]:
We're excited about the improvement. But when we're walking to the car, spouse says that thing to the spouse. This spouse takes it personal. Where does that go? Yeah, because that seems like it's just a spiral.
Kevin Thompson [00:25:43]:
No, it's the great danger. Which is why, I mean, one thing I always encourage, and this is beyond just marriage and relationship, it's also leadership, which is if you can ignore the first verbal jab, that's hard, right?
Adrienne Neufeld [00:25:58]:
Well, you're good at that.
Kevin Thompson [00:26:00]:
Just take it. Because the temptation is they jab, we jab back. Well, the moment that the fight occurs with the second blow, not the first. Because now we're both Engaged. Whereas if we can absorb the first one, and this cannot be one sided for the whole marriage, this has to be a skill that both partners pick up on and learn and utilize. Because if it's always one sided, then one person is just going to feel beat up. But if you as a couple can learn. You know what? I didn't like their tone right there.
Kevin Thompson [00:26:33]:
That felt very attacking. Okay, I can absorb that. Now. Let me lean in on what's going on instead of just punching back because here's what happens. I mean, it's Sue Johnson, hold me tight, the demon dialogues, right? You punch, I get defensive, I punch back. And now we're just going back and forth in this kind of protest and defense kind of concept until eventually we go our separate ways. That's unhealthy. But if I can absorb the first punch and instead of focusing on defending myself, if I can lean into you, well, now you don't have to punch because I'm there.
Kevin Thompson [00:27:11]:
And I don't have to be defensive because you don't have to. We're actually focused on you in this moment. And that's the magic, I think. And that's what y' all are experiencing is y' all have matured long enough, you know each other well enough to recognize, hey, that actually wasn't the way he intended it or she intended it. It's something else. Now. Let me lean into that.
Blaine Neufeld [00:27:30]:
Yeah, and I'll say too, it's never, it's not always been like this. And now my mind's going back to when were the biggest fights. It's when I probably wasn't dealing with the stress in my life, health with like, in a healthy way. And then I was more vulnerable. So I think that there's a big element here of I'm in a healthy place. Like, I feel good spiritually. I feel good about what my identity is and all these things that now I can take a blow far easier than I could when I was hustling and doing my thing. And it's like, what do you mean? I'm providing, I'm being this, I'm being that.
Blaine Neufeld [00:28:04]:
No, you need to treat me better. And then the fight just continued on. So I'm thinking again about the listener of like, well, hold on. That's nice for you guys. You seem to have a good marriage. No, no. It took years of work, years of tears, years of fights to understand. And then it took humbleness, I think, for both of us to say, I'd like a better marriage.
Blaine Neufeld [00:28:23]:
This. What are we doing?
Adrienne Neufeld [00:28:25]:
We can do it better.
Blaine Neufeld [00:28:26]:
There are times now, which is a goal, I think, for us, is when we're having a fight, there's, like, laughter because we realize just how stupid. Stupid and silly the fight is. What are we doing here, right? And then it becomes ridiculous. And then, you know, notice that even the.
Kevin Thompson [00:28:42]:
Even the silly power of this. This podcast is y' all can be in a fight. And literally one of you think, oh, this will be great for the show. Like, this is. This is research material.
Blaine Neufeld [00:28:53]:
But Jesus, for the material.
Kevin Thompson [00:28:54]:
But notice. Notice even that, like, give some distance to it to where it's not as life and death. And here's a place that y' all are in that y' all just need to be aware of, is you're at a place now that you've done so much of the work and you've been together for such a long period of time, you know each other so well, you're in a healthy spot, other people are going to start looking at you and going, man, I wish we had their marriage, but we don't. And what they don't see is all the work that it took to get there. And what they actually need to be saying is, man, I hope that we're willing to put in the work to get to that marriage. But if they're not very careful, they can just think, oh, y' all are just the right fit. And that's just why it worked out. That's how it happened.
Kevin Thompson [00:29:37]:
When in reality, y' all did the.
Blaine Neufeld [00:29:38]:
Work to make it happen because the odds were never left.
Adrienne Neufeld [00:29:42]:
So close.
Kevin Thompson [00:29:43]:
Wow. One day. Hey.
Adrienne Neufeld [00:29:45]:
So close.
Kevin Thompson [00:29:45]:
I think, whatever. One day, whenever they cancel us. I don't know. On the very last episode, you're gonna get the tagline, right?
Blaine Neufeld [00:29:52]:
I'm gonna get it.
Kevin Thompson [00:29:53]:
Hey, I do think there's one thing that we need to hit on. So we talked about how, to our understanding, there's no real biological background of this idea of men are logical, women are emotional. But I think we do need to talk about. There is this very big cultural conditioning that takes place there, which is what I think causes the stereotype to be believed to be true of why it's not actually true, and that is this. It is very common and even socially expected for little girls and eventually women to be in tune with their emotions and to understand. And for many who are listening, it is the perceived wife's job to understand the emotional climate within the house and to keep that going the way it's supposed to go. Right. Whereas for little boys and eventually into men, very Quickly, we can be shamed for our emotions.
Kevin Thompson [00:30:45]:
We need to man up. We need to compartmentalize. This isn't the time now to show this. The problem is then there becomes never a time to show it. And so what happens is. And here's where I think it's actually. I don't think it's actually biology that causes the stereotype. I think it is projection.
Kevin Thompson [00:31:02]:
It is more than socially acceptable for a woman to allow her emotions to ooze out in the midst of the situation. And we all feel more what's going on when a man does that. It can be seen as weak, it can be seen as confusing, and literally, people can get uncomfortable very quickly. And then that becomes a perpetuating concept, I think, across the board. And here's what I think we need to recognize we're all logical and emotional people. Don't forget what Kurt Thompson is going to say. I've quoted it a million times on this podcast. Kurt Thompson is going to say, wisdom is logic plus emotion.
Kevin Thompson [00:31:41]:
When you only have one of those, you do not have wisdom. So we all have to have both of those kind of things. Remember, it is emotion that allows us to put our logical precepts in the proper order. And so if we say, look, It's Thursday, it's 10am and your house is on fire. If all we have is logic, your brain's going to be processing, what does it mean that it's Thursday and y' all are thinking right now, it's not Thursday, but I'm pretending. And then you're like, all right, what does it mean that it's morning time, and then eventually you get to your houses on fire. It is only emotion that allows you to hear those three things and immediately move it up, move up what is actually important. So think about this.
Kevin Thompson [00:32:21]:
What if you did not have that ability? It's kind of like you've heard about people that don't have the ability to feel pain, and you think, oh, how great would that be? No, no, no, it'd be horrific. You have to be able to feel pain in order to properly know when are you in danger and not in danger, not to hurt your body, all those kind of things. You have to have emotion. To put the logic in its proper context. We've been talking about it here for the last several weeks from a biblical perspective. This is the idea of truth and love. You can't have one without the other. They both have to exist.
Kevin Thompson [00:32:51]:
And so, first and foremost, for a couple to recognize I am both logical and emotional. So If I think I'm only logical or if I think I'm more logical, it's not that I'm more logical, it's that I'm living more in denial of my emotions. So here's the problem. Here's the problem. The person that thinks they're more logical or actually run more by emotion than.
Adrienne Neufeld [00:33:15]:
Anything else, and they're stuffing it down.
Kevin Thompson [00:33:19]:
They're not aware of it.
Adrienne Neufeld [00:33:20]:
Don't look at me.
Kevin Thompson [00:33:24]:
So, I mean, y' all have heard me say this before. The old stereotypical of when the husband yells at the wife, just calm down. That's because he emotionally can't handle what's going on. He is the one. Her emotions and the outward expression of them are overwhelming to him. It might be triggering a childhood experience where that's what caused the fight within the house. Or he was always told, we don't deal with emotions. We got to stay logical because emotions will lead us astray.
Kevin Thompson [00:33:56]:
And now he thinks there's a great danger that is there. It's triggering all these things. But the irony is what it's triggering are his emotions of being out of control. Of being. Yes, out of control. And so even the idea of don't be so emotional is an actual emotional statement.
Adrienne Neufeld [00:34:11]:
Oh, I'm feeling convicted about our children because we have a boy and two girls and it's totally acceptable for the girls. In my mind, I'm like, oh, you're sad. You know, and then our son expresses his emotions more kind of in frustration or like anger, and I'll be like, what is wrong with you? You know, But I gotta.
Blaine Neufeld [00:34:31]:
But you have.
Adrienne Neufeld [00:34:32]:
I mean, you want to, like, help them learn when it's appropriate and stuff.
Blaine Neufeld [00:34:36]:
But I would say some of the healing that's gone on in, in our kids lives is being able to express the emo. What are you feeling? Like, we've talked about this in the past of the podcast and it's. It's freeing. It's. It's. And it's hard for kids to put words to.
Kevin Thompson [00:34:50]:
Oh, yeah.
Adrienne Neufeld [00:34:51]:
It's hard for adults sometimes.
Blaine Neufeld [00:34:52]:
It is. Yeah. But, like, just being okay with that, being a safe place has got to be a win for a lot of families.
Kevin Thompson [00:34:59]:
Yeah. Well, and that's the whole goal that we have in parenting, and we're learning it ourselves as well, is we want them to learn how do we properly process and channel their emotions. We don't want them to live in denial of it, which is what we're actually in danger of with little boys if we're not Very careful. Is we can actually speak into the cultural training to where we tell them, you can't feel this. You can't look at this. It's almost an encouraging and avoidant attachment. As if they will be better for it if that's the case. Instead, it is to recognize whenever he's frustrated.
Kevin Thompson [00:35:32]:
I think that the task is here is to recognize. Chances are whenever he's expressing anger, he's actually Sad.
Adrienne Neufeld [00:35:37]:
Oh, yeah, 100%.
Kevin Thompson [00:35:39]:
And then how do we begin to lean into that and how do we help him begin to learn? And it's a long process. This is a goal that you have that by the time he's 30, he's going to have this. Right.
Adrienne Neufeld [00:35:48]:
Right.
Kevin Thompson [00:35:48]:
Not. And if I do this, well, over these next six weeks, he'll have this. But how can he begin to verbalize that and feel safe in the midst of that and recognize. People aren't going to help me. I'm in charge of my emotions. It's not anybody else's expectation, but other people can help me.
Adrienne Neufeld [00:36:04]:
Yeah. Help regulate.
Blaine Neufeld [00:36:05]:
I'm even seeing things in my own life that I've discovered in the last five years in them. And this idea of like being scared of seasonal change or sentimental things being gone.
Adrienne Neufeld [00:36:16]:
Moving's triggered a lot of things for.
Blaine Neufeld [00:36:18]:
All of those things. So I see growth, but I'm excited about it. I don't know how much time we got, but I do want to get to the idea of someone that's listening and saying again, it's like, oh, I wish this, that and the other thing. But I don't want to be discouraged. Can give me hope, you know, he's this. I'm this. How can we go? How can we. All right, get going.
Kevin Thompson [00:36:37]:
All right. Absolutely. He's this, I'm this. What do we do? First of all, you recognize that's not a true statement.
Blaine Neufeld [00:36:42]:
Right.
Kevin Thompson [00:36:43]:
Neither one of you are that. You're whole human beings. Now. Do you lead a little bit more with one over the other? Absolutely. We have to first and foremost recognize that those are their logic. Is there. Emotion is there. Right.
Kevin Thompson [00:36:56]:
All those things exist. Now. How can we invite them onto the table instead of allowing them to drive us in unseen ways? We don't want to do that. So the old school kind of concepts here of some empathy and some curiosity, just some intrigue about myself. All right, so I don't feel like a very. I talked about this weekend. I don't feel like a very emotional person. If you would have asked me two years ago, how do you deal with Your anger.
Kevin Thompson [00:37:23]:
I would have laughed and said, nah, sorry, I don't have anger. Well, then you recognize. No, you actually do. You're just not comfortable with it. So you can't admit it. So it stays stuff underneath the table and it oozes out in a frustration. Right. Those kind of things.
Kevin Thompson [00:37:37]:
So why don't you just bring it on the table and actually name it? Because as Siegel says, when you name it, you tame it. Actually naming something causes it to have less power over us. So let's get curious about ourselves and then curious about each other. And then even, I mean, for Jenny and I, we've already talked about it. Recognize the questions you're not regularly asking as a couple and start being intentional about asking those things. So for us, it's what do you feel? But just never ask that. Never think to ask that. So let's be more intentional about asking those things.
Kevin Thompson [00:38:08]:
And then for me, it is, what are we going to do? Okay. I don't ask that question. I'm all about the ideas. All right, Kevin, that's great. Your ideas are great. Love your ideas. Now, what action step do you plan on taking with that? I don't like that conversation. I don't like to commit.
Kevin Thompson [00:38:24]:
And then for Jenny, it is inviting now a little bit more of the information into it. Okay. And so if we can become empathetic to where. All right, this is tough for them. Let's give them some space to not always get it right. And so here's what this looks like. If you are led more by your head than your heart, what would it look like to take some risk to where Maybe you do come across as too emotional one time. Okay.
Kevin Thompson [00:38:54]:
Because let's face it, I could be wrong. You all tell me, if I really leaned in to an emotional side of me and literally went off in a room, would that really be somebody going off? Do I even have that capability? Like, what is going to feel so uncomfortable, out of control uncomfortable for me? Like.
Blaine Neufeld [00:39:18]:
No, tell us.
Kevin Thompson [00:39:19]:
Some of our co workers would be like a Tuesday. All right. Yeah. And so now that's not true for others, right? For others, no, you don't. What would it look like to restrain, to not act in that way? But whenever you have somebody like me who is so non emotional, outwardly expressing non emotional. I mean, what would it look like for me to walk out on stage and to truly have a time of very expressive worship?
Adrienne Neufeld [00:39:46]:
Everyone would be shocked.
Kevin Thompson [00:39:49]:
But it wouldn't even look that expressive. Right. What to me would feel like extreme expression on our stage would look like you wouldn't even recognize me. Yeah. Yeah, right. And so to have that kind of courage and then to draw that out of each other and even in a time of vulnerability, to be able to say, hey, honey, I would really love to see more of your heart, and I want you to know if you show that even. Even if it comes across in a way that you later regret, I'm okay with that. I would rather us take the risk to learn more about you, to see you.
Kevin Thompson [00:40:26]:
And this is a safe space where we can begin to figure this out. So I think having that kind of a thing. And then I also think this idea of, let's have these really open conversations about what does trigger me and how can we name it? Kind of like what y' all had this morning. Okay. What was going on there?
Blaine Neufeld [00:40:46]:
Yeah.
Kevin Thompson [00:40:47]:
Okay. And so it's almost like we go back. If we have an event that doesn't go well, if we can get into a safe space, let's dig through the rubble, find the black box, and get back into. All right, where did this go wrong? And it does not need to be a. We're going to litigate. Have the court reporter read back the transcript. And you said this, and I said that. No, no, no.
Kevin Thompson [00:41:07]:
Instead, it is this very confessional. Hey. Here's what I was feeling in the.
Blaine Neufeld [00:41:11]:
Midst of all this.
Kevin Thompson [00:41:12]:
I wasn't even aware this morning that anything was going on. Then I felt some tension.
Blaine Neufeld [00:41:16]:
I was doing great.
Kevin Thompson [00:41:16]:
Yeah. I thought things were great. Then I felt some tension, and then I was kind of confused of what was happening.
Adrienne Neufeld [00:41:22]:
I don't think you felt any tension. That was the problem.
Blaine Neufeld [00:41:24]:
The only tension I felt was when you are unaware.
Kevin Thompson [00:41:27]:
Yes, suddenly. Suddenly it's there. But from your own perspective, here's where a fight goes wrong in something like that is. Then it becomes, well, you said this and you meant this, and I am now defining who you are as a person, not even allowing your own humanity. It can't be that. But whenever it begins, here's what I felt, here's what I saw, here's what I believe, those kind of things. And then I think beyond everything else is just recognize the lie and stop the excuses that you're not logical. You're both.
Kevin Thompson [00:42:03]:
You're logical and emotional. How can we bring both those to the table and even get to the point of. In a playful way, if I claim to be, well, I'm more logical than you are. Well, that's good. You're still not wise, because wisdom takes both. And our goal here is not to be logical, not to be emotional. It's to be wise and to get that we both have to bring those things to the table.
Blaine Neufeld [00:42:25]:
Yes. I love that. I love it. And I will also say this as an encouragement anytime that we've put the things on the table and made ourselves vulnerable. It's been tough, but at the same time, we've had small increments of improvement in those areas. She's a little bit more in tune with the emotions. I'm more logical now. I.
Blaine Neufeld [00:42:43]:
I slow down a little bit and you're like, oh, yeah, that actually, let's not just go off and do everything and spend all the money and do all the fun things. It's like. And. But it, you know, we. Both of your guys. Eyebrows are just like.
Adrienne Neufeld [00:42:55]:
Progress.
Blaine Neufeld [00:42:56]:
Yeah, progress. But you know what I'm saying? Because it's.
Kevin Thompson [00:43:00]:
It's.
Blaine Neufeld [00:43:00]:
It's scary and it's okay because you put a little bit out there, it won't be perfect, but you will take a small step forward and then you do it again. And in our best seasons have been when things are on the table and it's safe and we know that we want the best for each other. Like, for me to hear that this morning and then go home and ignore it is a super selfish and just ignorant. Like, what am I doing? I want a better marriage. I got new information. I should apply it. That's logic. You know, it's just like I can see it in real time, but I.
Adrienne Neufeld [00:43:30]:
And I'm learning about. More about myself. Like, why did I get triggered?
Blaine Neufeld [00:43:34]:
Yeah, you're tapping into your emotions because. Yeah, yeah, yeah. And that's great. We named it. Yeah, we claimed it.
Adrienne Neufeld [00:43:40]:
Yeah.
Kevin Thompson [00:43:41]:
Named it and claimed it, tamed it, named it, Claimed it. And you know what you did in the end? You changed the odds. See you next time.