Kevin Thompson [00:00:00]:
Hey, welcome back to Change the Odds, the podcast where marriage and family were never meant to be. A game of chance. Playing it, Adrienne. Yeah, we are.
Blaine Neufeld [00:00:05]:
Here we are.
Kevin Thompson [00:00:06]:
Last episode. Yeah, we did something. Yeah, this isn't the last episode.
Blaine Neufeld [00:00:09]:
We like it. We like it too.
Kevin Thompson [00:00:11]:
Yeah, we did a little. What are we calling it? Well, you had. You had one title.
Adrienne Neufeld [00:00:15]:
The Marriage Fight Club.
Kevin Thompson [00:00:16]:
That was not it, but okay. That was my title.
Blaine Neufeld [00:00:18]:
That was mine. And I'm glad that stuck.
Adrienne Neufeld [00:00:21]:
The Good Fight.
Kevin Thompson [00:00:21]:
The Good Fight Club.
Adrienne Neufeld [00:00:22]:
The Good Fight Club.
Kevin Thompson [00:00:24]:
I don't think it stuck.
Adrienne Neufeld [00:00:24]:
No.
Kevin Thompson [00:00:25]:
Good try.
Blaine Neufeld [00:00:26]:
But the Marriage Fight Club. Ding, ding, ding. Round two.
Kevin Thompson [00:00:29]:
Oh, here we go. We're going to go. We're going again. So once again, what's happened here? People have texted in. They text marriage to 56316. Yes. Or they can go to Adrienne Neufeld at Adrienne Neufeld on Instagram.
Adrienne Neufeld [00:00:40]:
On Instagram. And send us your fights.
Blaine Neufeld [00:00:43]:
Yes.
Kevin Thompson [00:00:43]:
And we're going to break them down.
Blaine Neufeld [00:00:44]:
Completely anonymous as well.
Kevin Thompson [00:00:47]:
Absolutely.
Adrienne Neufeld [00:00:48]:
Names.
Kevin Thompson [00:00:48]:
Yes. And then what we tend to look for, we don't always have this information, so sometimes you have to read into it. But we. We're gonna try to figure out what do we think is the personality. So what's driving them? Specifically, we like to use the language of head, heart, gut, what's driving them? A lot of enneagram language within that. And then what are some possible attachment things that we're seeing that's going on? And then beyond that, how can we get into some predictability? Are we good friends, partners and lovers? If so, the fight's gonna lead us closer. If we're not, it's gonna drive us apart. How do we develop these things? Here we go, Blaine, fight number two.
Blaine Neufeld [00:01:22]:
Adrienne, you love the drama. Here we go. Let's hear this one. So this.
Adrienne Neufeld [00:01:26]:
The.
Blaine Neufeld [00:01:26]:
The. I think the common fight here, if I'm reading this correctly, is there's difference of parenting styles. Okay, so let me just read this out and then you guys can take your thoughts and let the listener here. So. Hey, Adrienne.
Adrienne Neufeld [00:01:42]:
Hey.
Blaine Neufeld [00:01:43]:
My husband is an old school parenting. My husband has an old school parenting style. What he says goes. And I'm learning about kids dysregulation. So we're trying to incorporate two types of parenting styles with our son who is adopted. So that's a different type of parenting than our bio kids altogether. Instead of trying to be the boss all the time, just trying to stay in relationship. When we say yes and when we say no, it feels like it causes so much division between the two of us.
Blaine Neufeld [00:02:17]:
We're also in our 50s, so that's a whole different generation of parenting as well, but learning to do it better. We appreciate you guys, your realness and humor. That's so nice. What about that was more directed to us, the realness and humor.
Adrienne Neufeld [00:02:33]:
We're doing so much funny good together as a team.
Kevin Thompson [00:02:37]:
Neither real nor funny over here.
Blaine Neufeld [00:02:40]:
Hey, Kevin. Hey, Kevin. I didn't see you there. Just having a moment.
Kevin Thompson [00:02:44]:
All right, man. I mean, I jotted down several things within that one. Think about the issues that are taking place there of the idea of old school parenting versus new thought parenting.
Adrienne Neufeld [00:02:55]:
Can we just clarify what dysregulating is?
Kevin Thompson [00:02:58]:
Okay.
Adrienne Neufeld [00:02:59]:
Is that the term? No, I'm asking. Sorry.
Blaine Neufeld [00:03:02]:
We need you back, kids.
Kevin Thompson [00:03:04]:
I think that's a great concept. So when a person, any person, child, it could be us as well. So this is not just about children. It's easier to see in children. We have to recognize it happens within us. Whenever you're regulated, it means that you are in your window of tolerance. So we talked about this in a previous episode. You can take in information, you can listen, you can process, you can change, you can consider, you can reason all those things.
Kevin Thompson [00:03:28]:
You're fully engaged in what's going on. You're not too low of energy, you're not too high of energy. The fullness of who you are as a human being. Hopefully we are regulated right, right now, the three of us. Whenever you become dysregulated, what it means is something has triggered within you a fight, flight, fawn or freeze response. And now your body is so fixated on safety that it's not fully functioning the way that you would want it to function. So remember in the Widow of Tolerance, we talked about hypoarousal and hyper arousal. Hyper arousal.
Kevin Thompson [00:04:02]:
And what happens a lot of times, especially with some kids, is they know they're dysregulated. We're going to fight. So especially whenever you have an adoption issue here, because that's a whole aspect of what's happening here. Chances are they have a more narrow window of tolerance because some of their needs maybe early on weren't met and what those attachment issues actually are. So some kids, the fight is going to be on. They're going to have a quick trigger to fight. That's hyper arousal. We have that as well, by the way, when, I mean, part of what we're doing, fight club here, right? That energy, the tone goes up, the heart begins to race.
Kevin Thompson [00:04:39]:
That's hyper arousal. You are actually too energized. To operate. We talked about in the episode Window of Tolerance. It's like trying to get to turning the volume up too much that your speakers can't handle it. Everything becomes distorted. But another aspect of dysregulation is hypoarousal, which now it's fake spawn freeze. It's the idea of no energy.
Kevin Thompson [00:05:01]:
So just for protection, I'm actually going to step out of this and avoid it. We can put this in attachment terminology. A more anxious attachment tends to be more hyper aroused. More avoidant attachment is hypo. In other words, I'm not going to bring myself to the discussion because I'm afraid of what might actually happen.
Adrienne Neufeld [00:05:19]:
Right. So in parenting it would be more like seeing the emotion behind that, the action and like either removing the kid instead of getting mad and trying to fight. It's like let's deal with the environment around them first.
Kevin Thompson [00:05:31]:
We want to. So in parenting you, you would want to. So this is new school parenting that, that I think has some real legitimacy. It's the idea of you have to get them inside their window of tolerance before they can really reason with you and logic and learn.
Adrienne Neufeld [00:05:46]:
Yeah. So don't discipline in that moment because it's kind of useless.
Kevin Thompson [00:05:50]:
Calm them first.
Adrienne Neufeld [00:05:51]:
Yes. Okay, let's regulate them.
Kevin Thompson [00:05:53]:
What's going to be the point of lecturing a teenager about curfew when they are just so emotional.
Adrienne Neufeld [00:06:01]:
I'm with you.
Blaine Neufeld [00:06:02]:
Or a four year old of screaming tantrum.
Kevin Thompson [00:06:05]:
Yes.
Blaine Neufeld [00:06:06]:
They're so out of the window of tolerance that you see they aren't hearing anything. No. And just like that's one of.
Adrienne Neufeld [00:06:12]:
So let's calm them and then let's.
Blaine Neufeld [00:06:14]:
Deal with the issue.
Kevin Thompson [00:06:14]:
Got it.
Adrienne Neufeld [00:06:15]:
Okay, so back to marriage now.
Kevin Thompson [00:06:16]:
So let's look at some possibilities of what could be going on here. Obviously we don't know their personality, but some things that could be present, especially somebody that hey, it needs to be done my way. You can hear within that a lot of concept of gut. Okay, here's what we're going to do.
Adrienne Neufeld [00:06:34]:
That's not head.
Kevin Thompson [00:06:35]:
Let's go. No, no, no, because here's why it's probably not head. Head would be really open to what your opinion is. In other words, I have my ideas. Yes, but. Oh, you have ideas too. Well, what are your ideas?
Adrienne Neufeld [00:06:48]:
Right, right.
Kevin Thompson [00:06:49]:
Well, somebody who's more gut driven isn't going to care about your gut, doesn't.
Blaine Neufeld [00:06:52]:
Care about your mind.
Kevin Thompson [00:06:53]:
We got to get this done.
Blaine Neufeld [00:06:54]:
I don't care about my thoughts.
Adrienne Neufeld [00:06:55]:
That's not a dyadic.
Kevin Thompson [00:06:57]:
So think about Jenny for a second. So. Right.
Adrienne Neufeld [00:07:00]:
I love to think about Jenny.
Kevin Thompson [00:07:01]:
Oh, don't we all?
Blaine Neufeld [00:07:01]:
Jenny's great, by the way.
Kevin Thompson [00:07:02]:
Yes. One day she'll be on here. So Jenny. I mean, Jenny and I will have this discussion at times in which she'll get tired of the theory. We gotta. Let's act. We have to do some things.
Blaine Neufeld [00:07:16]:
Enough information. Right, let's go.
Kevin Thompson [00:07:17]:
And so Jenny on the Enneagram would be a one, wing two. Right. So she's gonna be agency now inward. And so literally, she loves my ideas. She loves that I have ideas. That's great. But there comes a point drawing the line in the sand. Here's what we're doing.
Kevin Thompson [00:07:31]:
We're going now. Jenny's a healthy one, so she can be thoughtful with other people. If you're a little bit more unhealthy, you're gonna be more rigid, in your opinion. And so it could be here. He might be a one. And so it's agency inward. It's. I know what we need to do.
Kevin Thompson [00:07:48]:
We just got to go do it. I don't want to have any debate about any of this other stuff. And also notice with A one specifically, agency inward, a rule follower from the concept of here's how it was raised, it would be dishonoring how we do to them. This is how we do it. Another possibility here with him could be still agency, but instead of a one is an eight, which is. So an eight is going to be agency outward. So this is going to be the idea of, I'm in charge and I'm coming in. So A1 has a more reserved personality, but still driven by the gut and this inner critic.
Kevin Thompson [00:08:23]:
An 8 is going to be a big personality. You might know a fellow Canadian that we might work for.
Blaine Neufeld [00:08:28]:
Is he or she an eight?
Kevin Thompson [00:08:30]:
Oh, he absolutely is. She. She's a nine. Wing eight.
Blaine Neufeld [00:08:34]:
So don't chat.
Kevin Thompson [00:08:37]:
That's for a later episode.
Adrienne Neufeld [00:08:38]:
A healthy eight will have a healthy challenge.
Blaine Neufeld [00:08:41]:
He loves a good challenge.
Kevin Thompson [00:08:43]:
Loves the challenge. So he's a healthy eight, but it's gonna. Not him. Not him specifically because he pays me. I'm not gonna say this about him, but eights in general. A healthy eight, bring the challenge on. Let's go. Yeah, let's debate unhealthy 8.
Kevin Thompson [00:08:55]:
Oh, no, you don't want the challenge. Cause you're wrong. I'm right. Here's how we're gonna do it. But notice what's also at play here. We haven't even gotten to her personality.
Adrienne Neufeld [00:09:03]:
Oh, my gosh.
Kevin Thompson [00:09:03]:
What's also in Play is possibly some generational gender stereotypes.
Adrienne Neufeld [00:09:08]:
Yes, it sounds a lot like that.
Kevin Thompson [00:09:10]:
Kevin. It's conceivable that we have a little bit of, I'm the man, I get to make the choices. That could also be present. But then from her standpoint, she could also be gut driven. It could be that you have two people who are gut driven, but it expresses itself differently. So he might be inward or outward. She's probably more dyadic, so she's a little bit more concerned about the relationship with the child, about what he's feeling in this moment. So she's kind of guarding it.
Kevin Thompson [00:09:37]:
That could either be how she attends to the world. So she could be a 9 where she's agency dyadic, or it could be what actually drives her is more the heart of what's going on. So she could be like a two wing, three on the enneagram. So she's heart driven, outward dyadic. That part doesn't matter as much. But clearly she has a relational dynamic here, so we'd have to understand what's going on.
Adrienne Neufeld [00:09:59]:
And even the way she's teaching, talking about her husband, it's all relational. It's like she. You can clearly see, she can see a bigger picture.
Kevin Thompson [00:10:07]:
So it's either the dyatic aspect or it is the heart aspect that's driving her. One of those two things, it's clearly at play. I think I'm pretty confident without knowing.
Blaine Neufeld [00:10:15]:
I. I'm tagging along slowly. I feel like I'm walking in the sand. You guys are out for a jog. Running.
Adrienne Neufeld [00:10:21]:
Kevin, jogging. I don't know.
Blaine Neufeld [00:10:22]:
Hey, guys, wait for me. Whoa.
Kevin Thompson [00:10:25]:
Shots. What? Shots fired.
Blaine Neufeld [00:10:26]:
I thought we were like, oh, we were jabbing.
Adrienne Neufeld [00:10:30]:
I got my gloves on.
Blaine Neufeld [00:10:31]:
Okay. My question is, in order to kind of. There's two thoughts I have here was if he is a challenger and insecure about that, he's going to try to really force his opinion on it without kind of hearing any feedback. Right?
Kevin Thompson [00:10:47]:
Yeah, I. Yeah, I.
Blaine Neufeld [00:10:48]:
Or am I stuck on.
Kevin Thompson [00:10:49]:
No, no, no, no. That's. That's totally accurate. I don't. I don't use the challenger language, but I get it. I get the point. But it is agency. Now, outward is going to be an extremely dominant personality.
Blaine Neufeld [00:11:04]:
Right? So then my next question is, let's assume they're in a good spot. How do you, as a couple, bring it to the light that you might be dealing with some insecurities, if you know what I'm saying? Like, you're on the verge of secure, insecure. But you're willing to kind of hear. Because a lot of this in our past conversations have been the better self discovery you have. The better you know yourself, the better you're at dealing with yourself, therefore supporting the other person as they're dealing with themselves coming together. And you're the best version of yourselves. So if this is an old mindset type of thing, how do we get through that? How do we. How do we have the awakenings that.
Blaine Neufeld [00:11:45]:
Or is that okay? Yeah, you know.
Kevin Thompson [00:11:47]:
No, I think it's a fair question. I think in a healthy spot, it really is. Man. You have a very valid point that's incomplete. Just as I have a very valid point that's incomplete. Now, together, let's figure out how we're going to go about this. So let's narrow down what's going on. This conflict, I literally think can be narrowed down to two very basic words.
Kevin Thompson [00:12:11]:
He wants control, she wants connection. That's it. But notice this. The way for both of them to get what they want is to be influenced by the other. Because the control that he wants, actually, because this could come from a very good spot. And probably he wants control, which means he wants what's best for everybody. He wants calmness in the house. He wants the child to flourish.
Kevin Thompson [00:12:37]:
He wants the relationship to be great in his mind. How do you get that? Well, it is in a much more rigid, follow the rules disciplinarian. I follow the rules. You got to follow the rules. Basically, I have to conform you in. If I can control you into what I want, we're all going to be happier. She, on the other hand, is looking at this as no, as long as we feel connected, then everything is going to calm. And they're both right.
Kevin Thompson [00:13:06]:
They're just incomplete.
Blaine Neufeld [00:13:08]:
My analogy and thought goes to a hockey team or a sports team. The captain of the team, the leader of the team. I've seen leaders that are insecure and fearful that they're going to lose the captaincy. So there's a dictatorship. And it's like, you guys got to do this is how we do it. So much intensity. And then I've seen leaders that also have control of the room, but they're doing it in the connection form because they're secure, that they're actually becoming better leaders and they're far more trusted.
Adrienne Neufeld [00:13:38]:
But.
Blaine Neufeld [00:13:38]:
And those guys will go through the wall for the guy because there's also a distrust of the leader that's dictating to them. Do I hear that right?
Kevin Thompson [00:13:45]:
No, no, absolutely. And here's where I would Take this into marriage. Here's where I would. Would differ with the hockey analogy. On the hockey team, I could be wrong. I know nothing about hockey. On the hockey team, there is a clear hierarchy, okay. There's a coach who's in charge.
Blaine Neufeld [00:13:58]:
Good point.
Kevin Thompson [00:13:59]:
There's a captain, okay, Who. Who now has been chosen, probably by the team or by the coach or whatever, who has some authority. Authority. But it's different. Here's what I think is so important about this illustration. The first thing that really struck my. Got my attention about this description is this phrase. What he says goes.
Kevin Thompson [00:14:17]:
That's not partnership.
Blaine Neufeld [00:14:19]:
Yeah.
Kevin Thompson [00:14:20]:
We're not partners.
Adrienne Neufeld [00:14:20]:
You're right.
Kevin Thompson [00:14:22]:
There's an inequality here.
Adrienne Neufeld [00:14:24]:
It's like he's the captain and she's just a player on the team.
Kevin Thompson [00:14:27]:
And just what he says goes. Now, there could be some generational aspect here where maybe. I don't know, but obviously they're going to be a decade older than I am. And she even points that out. But a lot of it probably comes from. I would love to discover his family of origin. Chances are dad was in charge, mom was along for the ride, and maybe sometimes got treated like a child. I don't know.
Kevin Thompson [00:14:52]:
But he was clearly the one commanding. And now this man has picked up on that. And again, he is going into a rigid kind of concept. You got to follow the rules. And the rules are, I'm in charge. And if you're not doing what I'm saying, not only is it disrespectful to me, I don't even know. Basically, I don't know how to do any of this, apart from probably I could be wrong. Probably the command of my voice, the force that I bring, is the only way I know how to manage this.
Adrienne Neufeld [00:15:21]:
And that's kind of like fear. Like the fear.
Blaine Neufeld [00:15:25]:
He's leading with fear.
Adrienne Neufeld [00:15:26]:
Well, no, he's trying. Well, yeah, that and putting fear into the kids so that the kid will obey.
Blaine Neufeld [00:15:31]:
Because I. I do believe, like the, you know, the man's supposed to lead the home, but there's a partnership in that leading. Right. You've always wanted me to lead the home spiritually and this sort of thing. Whereas I've seen too many guys kind of go the opposite way of this, where it's like they don't take authority and leadership because they're not sure. But when they humble themselves and get to this point, she comes there, she goes higher, he goes higher. And it's just this constant growth of true leadership together. Am I right?
Kevin Thompson [00:16:01]:
No, I have no problem with that. I think here's the issue of it's not true partnership and leadership. Whenever it's what one of them says goes. That's the issue. You are not leading your home if what you says goes. That's not Christlike leadership. That's not how he leads us. That's not how the interaction with the church.
Kevin Thompson [00:16:22]:
It is now this mutual cherishing that takes place. It is now me and Jenny coming together and how can we both now submit to each other? How can we learn from each other to be bonded of how we're going to go forward? Now, if I have leadership within that, my leadership is making sure that process is happening. Here's what I think is a big issue here. Leadership is not me demanding how things are going to happen and they happen. Leadership is. I'm the one initiating toward that which is most important and making sure that we're bringing all the resources together to accomplish that goal. That's what leadership looks like. So if somebody out there believes the man's the leader of the house, I have no problem with that.
Kevin Thompson [00:17:02]:
But let's clarify what that leadership is. It does not mean that you're in charge and whatever you say goes. And we just go from there. Push her to the side, take her opinion. In you get the tying vote comes down to you and you move forward. Not that it is. I care more about this than anything else to such an extent. I'm gonna be the first one to model that.
Kevin Thompson [00:17:21]:
It's not my way, it's not my background, it's not my experience. What I care most about is getting to a godly outcome. Let's bring together and come forward. That's what leadership looks like.
Adrienne Neufeld [00:17:30]:
Both strengths of the man and the woman.
Blaine Neufeld [00:17:32]:
Yes.
Adrienne Neufeld [00:17:33]:
And so can we say that it's, it's coming out, this issue is coming out in their parenting, but it is a much deeper issue of not like a partnership in their marriage could be.
Kevin Thompson [00:17:45]:
Maybe, maybe not. So, so here's the thing. Whenever I hear this, you have, I talk about this in friends, partners and lovers. You have a little bit of, A little bit of a parent child relationship in this one area.
Blaine Neufeld [00:17:55]:
Okay.
Kevin Thompson [00:17:56]:
So parent child relationships, it's when partnership devolves, it's, it's dissolves. It's not a true partnership. And so parent child relationships are great among parents and children. I don't expect my 17 year old to worry about how the light bill is going to get paid. I expect Jenny to consider it.
Blaine Neufeld [00:18:12]:
Right, right.
Kevin Thompson [00:18:14]:
And so parent child relationships can either be situational, so it could be that this only takes place here and they might have a very healthy relationship. And this isn't even a major issue, but it is their leading issue. Or it could be that this is symbolic about other things that are happening. So it's not necessarily. Here's how it has to be. It could be this could be a very healthy couple that now has some different backgrounds and experiences, and now they're trying to figure it out. And notice this adoption now is going to bring into it an added complexity that here's what happens. Anytime we're thrown into a situation that we don't know and added stress comes on, we tend to revert back to some things.
Kevin Thompson [00:19:02]:
And so it's very possible here that he has a more avoidant attachment. And so what's one way you avoid conflict? You force your way. Yeah.
Blaine Neufeld [00:19:13]:
Yeah.
Kevin Thompson [00:19:14]:
And so a lot of men are this way with a more avoidant pathway, is they'll avoid it, avoid it, avoid it, avoid it. Silence, stonewalling, denying, ignoring. But when forced, they come in with force because they don't want the conversation. That's what they can't deal with. That's what they're avoiding. They're avoiding the feeling of the conflict. And so either I will check out or I will demand. Neither one of those are healthy.
Kevin Thompson [00:19:41]:
She might have a little bit more of an anxious pathway, which is, I'm so nervous about truly asserting my opinion, but I'm engaged. But if I assert it. So I better hold back. But I'm going to be upset that I'm holding it back. And I'm going to expect you to figure it out. And notice, even here, again, I mean, this is one side, all this, it really does kind of sound like, hey, he's wrong, and he probably is about some things, but what am I wrong about? In other words, does she recognize that, look, his controlling nature here is unhealthy. His desire to have the child follow the rules is very healthy. And is it possible that what can happen here is he can make her hold the line a little bit more and she can invite him into being more compassionate and understanding what's going on underneath the surface, how this is leveraged for strength is that because control and connection are both necessary, there's.
Kevin Thompson [00:20:43]:
There needs to be some predictability in this house, some understanding of consequences if they're not lived up to, how do we hold the line on that? How do we have a connection in the midst of having clarity? But if they both are just fighting for their own turf, that's a dangerous.
Blaine Neufeld [00:21:00]:
Spot to be And I think in a positive spin, I'm looking at our life now because I think that I've done maturing. You were there already, but I've matured into this better version of myself. When we deal with the parents versus the kids, like and say our one child is out of control and you've had enough, you trust and know that there's a partnership there, that it's you. It's not you deal with it. It's like, help me like tag in. Tag in.
Kevin Thompson [00:21:28]:
Oh yeah. Oh, no doubt.
Blaine Neufeld [00:21:29]:
Versus is it common in scenarios like this is responsibilities fall in different areas as well. Where it's like, no, you're doing that. That's what you do.
Kevin Thompson [00:21:40]:
Is that no doubt Again, I think the appreciation that my way is incomplete. My way is good, but incomplete. And so we need more. I mean, Jenny and I learned this when the kids were little. We always knew. Jenny and I always knew that parenting was going to be our biggest potential for conflict. We were raised in dramatically different ways. So she's rural Oklahoma.
Kevin Thompson [00:22:01]:
Right. It's very structured. You go to school all week, Monday through Friday and work and then you have chores after you get home. Saturday you're working on all the property all day long. Sunday you're going to church. It was this very structured kind of thing. The parents were very clearly in charge. Right.
Kevin Thompson [00:22:18]:
I came from a more suburban background, right. A little bit more of a kid centric home where we had much more of a say of what was going on and setting some of the climate. And so we just knew that coming in parenting wise and it's worked out this way. And again then personality wise, right. I'm a six, she's a one. So she's going to have a way things are supposed to happen. Do it, let's go. And I'm going to be.
Kevin Thompson [00:22:41]:
They'll figure it out, it'll work out. And here's where the strength lies in that. That whenever we recognize there's times I'm right, there's times she's right and we can lean on each other. And I don't have an arrogance of thinking my way is the way, then there's this beautiful potential because notice what's happened here. When your spouse does not want to parent the same style you want to parent. There's two ways to look at that. One, we have conflict. What are we going to do? Or two, we have two different ways in our toolbox that we get to use with different kids in different situations in different parts.
Kevin Thompson [00:23:15]:
And so there are times in which I'm like, jenny, you take that. Good luck, kids. Here comes mom. There's going to be a way to do it. And then there's other times where it really is, hey, trust me. I got this one.
Blaine Neufeld [00:23:25]:
That's a beautiful spin on it, because thinking about our life, of how we deal with the suffering of our kids, like, going through something tough, she would have a big heart. And I'd be like, they're going to get through it. Let them. You're restricting them.
Adrienne Neufeld [00:23:39]:
But then you said that to me the other day.
Blaine Neufeld [00:23:41]:
And then there's seasons where it's like, no, they're not ready to go there. We have to protect them. And I got to be woken up and say, oh, yeah, my strategy right now isn't the one. Let's go to that one. Let's go back and forth, building them up to when they're ready. And then I can give her encouragement that we're gonna get through that and they're gonna grow. And so we're inspiring each other's opinions, but we're willing to hear it. I guess that's a key element here.
Adrienne Neufeld [00:24:07]:
Well, that's what I was gonna say. It's like, oh, she's probably like, great. Good for you guys. How do I get my husband to hear it?
Kevin Thompson [00:24:12]:
Right? Yeah.
Blaine Neufeld [00:24:13]:
Right?
Kevin Thompson [00:24:13]:
Yeah. Well, no, Kevin, how. Bayside counseling. No, it's a very fair question. And. And again, we're reading a lot into a very small paragraph, but let's go. Worst case scenario. Let's say that this is a person who is extremely rigid and is just uncomfortable.
Kevin Thompson [00:24:34]:
Avoid an attachment. Extremely rigid. Let's say an 8 or a 1 on the enneagram. And the only way they're making it through life now is this idea of, I'm gonna avoid all conflict by being the one who's in charge.
Blaine Neufeld [00:24:47]:
And.
Kevin Thompson [00:24:48]:
And if you disrespect that, that's a threat to who I am as a person. And then on top of that, a gender role of what's going on. Okay. I think what happens then is she goes to him and says, look, here's why I love you. Here's why I fell in love with you. Right. You're gut driven, man. You're such a great take charge person, all these kind of things.
Kevin Thompson [00:25:07]:
And I love that aspect of you and what you bring in this area. I don't feel. Feel like we have a true partnership. I don't feel like I have. I feel like I have a say. But it's not an equal vote that we are not actually A team in this area, and that you're expecting me to just submit to whatever your demands are in the moment. And that's just not how I think we need to go about this. Instead, I want to partner with you in what's going on, what this looks like.
Kevin Thompson [00:25:37]:
And I'm not saying I want my way. I'm not saying it has to be your way is wrong. What I'm saying is let's create a new way where we're blending together our strengths and who we want to be as a family. And again, a lot of them comes to him of how does he receive that? Is he willing to receive that? And if the answer is no, then I think it really does become, hey, let's get an outside source to assist us with that. And then if he says, well, I'm not going to counseling, okay, the appointment is Tuesday. I would love to have you there. I'm going with or without you, because this is not sustainable to me. I wanna figure this out.
Kevin Thompson [00:26:13]:
I would love to have you there, but I'm going with or without you. I gotta figure this out. That's in the most unhealthy of forms. My guess is, for many relationships I see, like, this is, there's a little bit of rigidity. There's a little bit of generational old schoolness. There's a little bit of, hey, I'm just more comfortable this way. But she oftentimes has more of a say in his life than what he likes to admit. And when she comes in an honoring, soft way, it's tough at first maybe, but he kind of begins to break down.
Kevin Thompson [00:26:43]:
And then eventually they begin to see, let's try what's going on. And here's the beauty, I think, of adoption. Adoption oftentimes will force you into a new pattern that you recognize. There's some complexity here that does not come natural to my own experience. So we do need some outside influences to begin to assist us, which now opens him up, possibly to learning about the window of tolerance, to learning about regulation, to learning about some of these new school thoughts of parenting that are actually, I think, better than some of the old school. But what of the old school do we still need to bring together? How do we wed together? Control and connection, clarity and connection. Instead of feeling like I have to choose one or the other.
Blaine Neufeld [00:27:26]:
Yes, yes. They're both tools. I love it.
Adrienne Neufeld [00:27:29]:
Yeah. And can I also encourage her to use prayer? You know, pray for your husband, pray for your children, because that has power in it, too. And God might be like, hey, I want to do that for your husband, but I'm also going to work on you, too, because there might be blinders that once you can break through that, you guys can serve each other better and work as a team.
Kevin Thompson [00:27:52]:
Yeah, no doubt. So let's. Let's, let's. I'm so quick to run to him being unhealthy. Let's run to her being unhealthy. Well, what does that look like? Her being unhealthy very easily could be that I am not willing to allow my child to experience the natural consequences of their own decisions. And I am rescuing.
Adrienne Neufeld [00:28:12]:
That's hard for me. I struggle with that.
Kevin Thompson [00:28:15]:
So, I mean, you could flip this very quickly if we hurt his side. So he's in a really healthy spot, actually. And she's unhealthy where because of her anxious attachment, it is. I can't really allow him to suffer in any way.
Adrienne Neufeld [00:28:28]:
And he already suffered so much. Like, who knows what he's gone through already? Like, I want to be that safety for him.
Kevin Thompson [00:28:33]:
So basically, I'm now going to begin to blame the dad so that the child has no responsibility whatsoever. And then it also could be this idea of I'm not willing to truly be assertive to my husband on what I think or believe, so I passively, aggressively just expect him to figure it out. So I don't say, hey, man, I don't feel like this is a true partnership. But instead, as I'm playing my role, I'm huffing, I'm puffing, I'm not encouraging, I'm being cold to him. The intimacy is beginning to dwindle because notice what happens here. The partnership is weak. So if she's healthy, she's going to confront that. If they're both healthy, they're going to confront that to get to work.
Blaine Neufeld [00:29:15]:
Yeah.
Kevin Thompson [00:29:15]:
If she is unhealthy, she is passively, aggressively going to try to improve the partnership. How? Making him suffer in the intimacy, which.
Blaine Neufeld [00:29:23]:
Will more than likely push him further away into this version that she doesn't want.
Kevin Thompson [00:29:28]:
It'll kill the friendship.
Blaine Neufeld [00:29:29]:
Yeah, but then there is no partnership.
Kevin Thompson [00:29:31]:
No, no.
Blaine Neufeld [00:29:32]:
Then she's partnered with the kids.
Kevin Thompson [00:29:33]:
It's eroding away.
Blaine Neufeld [00:29:35]:
Could be. It could be. Yes. Yeah.
Kevin Thompson [00:29:37]:
So let's take this. And so that's the worst case scenario. Worst case scenario is he's unhealthy, he's demanding, she's unhealthy, she's anxious, protecting the wrong things. Let's take this in a healthy way. What does this begin to look like? They have A conversation. Hey, this isn't working. Well, we want best. I know you love him, you know I love him.
Kevin Thompson [00:29:56]:
All those kind of things. What does this begin to look like? Okay, so we're gonna look at how do we bring both control and connection together. And this might be a little controversial, but I kinda like it. And it's this. There are times in which you just naturally play your role. No doubt. It's just eas. Jenny is going to be easier for Jenny to demand.
Kevin Thompson [00:30:16]:
Going to be harder for me to demand. There are times when you do that. No problem. More often than not, the way it needs to happen is we're going to get unity on how we're going to approach this. And then whichever one is the weakest in that area, they're going to lead in that way. So I'm going to learn to demand more. Jenny's going to learn to back off more.
Blaine Neufeld [00:30:39]:
Interesting.
Kevin Thompson [00:30:40]:
And what's happening now? Because our natural tendency is to think, oh, I'll back off in genital command. No, no, no. Because if we're not very careful, we can lean on those things too much and then not develop what's going on. Because chances are I will probably never be too demanding.
Blaine Neufeld [00:30:56]:
Right, Right, right.
Kevin Thompson [00:30:57]:
And chances are Jenny will probably never back off to an unhealthy way. And then what that allows us to do is now, as unified parents, have a much healthier approach where I will probably be demanding in a softer form that will be more acceptable to the child. Right. And then Jenny will back off in a way, in a much more healthy way to where the child is not abandoned. And literally in a healthy way. Here they have this discussion. They get on the same page. Now we're partners.
Kevin Thompson [00:31:28]:
We're going to go out and accomplish this. He is going to work hard on connection. She's going to work hard on holding the child accountable.
Blaine Neufeld [00:31:35]:
Yeah. So real time and us, you would not want to see our kids suffer.
Adrienne Neufeld [00:31:42]:
No, because I don't want to suffer.
Blaine Neufeld [00:31:44]:
Right. So then when discipline comes, you ask me to do it.
Adrienne Neufeld [00:31:49]:
Yeah.
Blaine Neufeld [00:31:50]:
So. And. And we're talking. We're in a secure, healthy version of ourselves. So let's keep going. I'm then the bad cop.
Kevin Thompson [00:31:59]:
Yeah.
Blaine Neufeld [00:31:59]:
To the kids. So then I don't want to deal with this. You deal with this now. If we would flip it and we would go away. Because you've said this before, go have the business meeting as a couple and talk about this. And so now we're doing the business meeting here. Right. And it's like.
Blaine Neufeld [00:32:16]:
But you're really good at loving them. So love them well through the suffering. What if you knew that my support was right behind you in the discipline and if you set the discipline. No, me and mom, mom and I agreed this is it. And mom is telling you that this is it. I support Mom. They kids see our unity, and that gives them confidence that we have a good relationship. It empowers her to have the voice when the little one is.
Blaine Neufeld [00:32:46]:
Because they go to her because they know they can break her.
Adrienne Neufeld [00:32:49]:
Well, yeah, but.
Blaine Neufeld [00:32:50]:
And then they respond to you better because I've been. You said firm line on that. Yeah, but if I can give her the spine to be firm. But she knows I'm right behind her, and I'm not going to counterfeit that vulnerability of hers that she just made. Suddenly she's more confident in doing the thing and our family is better off because both mom and dad are on the same page. I can't break these guys. I'll just stop this nonsense crying fit that I'm having because I can't win. But I'm going to keep crying until I know that I can break Mom.
Kevin Thompson [00:33:23]:
Two things on that that I think are important. One, what would it look like if y' all came together and just created some general house rules with age appropriate consequences? If these rules are broken, you basically know, generally speaking, you have three kids. Three kids.
Blaine Neufeld [00:33:38]:
Yeah.
Kevin Thompson [00:33:39]:
Generally speaking, you have three kids. And I bet you which each of them, there are only about two or three things that they do wrong, that everything falls into one of these couple categories. So with each child, based on where they are at this stage, maybe you sit down with them and say, hey, we're working on some new things. And man, whenever you do these things, here's the positive things, by the way, whenever you don't and you fall into one of these three behaviors, here's the consequence to that. Just FYI, this is how we're going to do it. So when Indy starts to cry or whatever, hey, if you pass the point, then here's the consequence that comes from that, that's established before anything happens.
Adrienne Neufeld [00:34:20]:
I like that.
Kevin Thompson [00:34:20]:
So what that's taking away, Adrienne, is from you having to judiciate in the moment what the consequences are when you're tired and you want to avoid it, all those kind of things. And then all you gotta do is hold accountable to what y' all have already agreed on with the kids and notice what happens now. And this is how you blend together this whole idea of order and empathy, which is the original question. The order comes from the rules that have been preset. Now you are no longer the judge handing down the sentence. You're the friend who's empathizing that they now have to.
Blaine Neufeld [00:34:58]:
Don't do it, guys.
Kevin Thompson [00:34:59]:
Don't go away.
Adrienne Neufeld [00:34:59]:
It's bad. You did that. Now we have to do this.
Kevin Thompson [00:35:01]:
I'm so sorry. Yes. And I'm here for you.
Adrienne Neufeld [00:35:03]:
I'm going to be with you through this.
Kevin Thompson [00:35:05]:
I'm with you through this. So notice what you're doing.
Blaine Neufeld [00:35:07]:
And that's her gift, by the way.
Kevin Thompson [00:35:08]:
That is your gift.
Blaine Neufeld [00:35:08]:
That is her gift.
Kevin Thompson [00:35:09]:
You're leveraging your gift without sacrificing.
Adrienne Neufeld [00:35:14]:
Dad's coming in. You better get in line. Yeah.
Kevin Thompson [00:35:16]:
What?
Blaine Neufeld [00:35:16]:
Actually, you can hear it now.
Kevin Thompson [00:35:18]:
Yeah. And now both of you. Right. And then Blaine knows. What that does for you is you now get to make sure that you're being empathetic as the rules are being handed out, and you're not having to end the moment, come in with this great force again, because. Oh, I'm the judge, and here, let me determine what your sentence is. It's already been determined. And notice how that removes so much uncertainty from the table.
Kevin Thompson [00:35:43]:
Because here's what's so difficult about parenting. At every age. My kids are 17 and 20, and it's no different now than it is little. Just the consequences are different. But whenever you bring clarity to the table, they already know, which empowers them to understand the consequences they're experiencing. But here's what it prevents from us at our weakest, most frustrated, most wearisome moment, we're having to investigate what happened. So we're having to be the detective. The police.
Blaine Neufeld [00:36:13]:
Yeah.
Kevin Thompson [00:36:14]:
We're then having to. To be the lawyer.
Blaine Neufeld [00:36:17]:
Yeah.
Kevin Thompson [00:36:18]:
To prosecute both sides. Then we're having to be the judge.
Blaine Neufeld [00:36:22]:
Yeah.
Kevin Thompson [00:36:22]:
To judiciate.
Blaine Neufeld [00:36:24]:
Yeah.
Kevin Thompson [00:36:24]:
And then we're having to be the parole officer.
Blaine Neufeld [00:36:27]:
Yeah.
Kevin Thompson [00:36:28]:
We're heaping so many things on at. At. At our worst moment. How many of those. What if we removed all of those. Yeah. And just simply were able to be the friend of the moment to go, hey, here's what's going on.
Blaine Neufeld [00:36:40]:
So you're creating the system. But then again, where she would be very good at this is if I have the system, I know that that's the system. So I kind of walk in those lines. I'm now thinking about me, but also our kids. But she's also got a great heart and a sense of the temperature in the room. And so there's also got to be an opportunity, or could be an opportunity of Grace.
Kevin Thompson [00:37:01]:
There's flexibility. It's all grace. There's grace in it all. But there are moments of, you know what? I'm going to. We're going to forego the sentence here.
Adrienne Neufeld [00:37:13]:
Is this the gospel?
Blaine Neufeld [00:37:15]:
Yes.
Kevin Thompson [00:37:16]:
Yes. Because let's have a conversation of what that looks like and what that experience is, and then with different kids, that's going to work in different ways.
Blaine Neufeld [00:37:25]:
Because I can see how we've done that in a mini version. Aversion at times. And how much our certain kid has grown immensely. Insecure attachment. So now one of our child is far more secure because we've shown him this or her this. Right?
Kevin Thompson [00:37:42]:
Yeah.
Blaine Neufeld [00:37:42]:
And it's like, ooh, you want the best version of your kids, not only yourselves, but your kids. You got to find the best version of you first if you're going to start parenting for their best version.
Kevin Thompson [00:37:52]:
I got one other thing. I do want to step back in about you. About you. Me?
Blaine Neufeld [00:37:57]:
Oh, whoa, whoa. Nice. And that is.
Adrienne Neufeld [00:37:59]:
I see you wrote something down there that I said.
Kevin Thompson [00:38:04]:
Here's what you said.
Adrienne Neufeld [00:38:05]:
I know. I feel like this is something. Okay, let's see.
Kevin Thompson [00:38:08]:
You don't want your kids to suffer because you don't want to suffer.
Adrienne Neufeld [00:38:12]:
Yeah. That's what we were talking about last night.
Kevin Thompson [00:38:14]:
It makes total sense. I'm right there with you.
Adrienne Neufeld [00:38:16]:
It's like a big fear of mine to suffer.
Kevin Thompson [00:38:18]:
I'm right there.
Adrienne Neufeld [00:38:19]:
What does that mean?
Kevin Thompson [00:38:20]:
I'm right there with you. There's nothing wrong with that. None of us should long to suffer. We don't want to suffer by any means. But here's what I think. We've got to recognize that we have to be honest with ourselves. When you fail to hold your kids accountable for their actions, it's actually selfishness that's doing that. It's that you do not want to experience.
Adrienne Neufeld [00:38:41]:
Oh, yeah. I don't want to hear them whining because they can't watch tv.
Kevin Thompson [00:38:44]:
Rightly so. Understandable and totally get it. But we got to begin to reframe it in our heads because. Because I'm with you on this. You and I have a lot in common on these. I mean, other than the fact that you have a personality and I don't. Everything else we're on, we're on the same page. But this idea of to recognize.
Kevin Thompson [00:39:04]:
All right. I can't parent selfishly because we can justify in our head, oh, we don't want them to suffer. My heart hurts for them. It's actually my heart that's hurting for me. It's the equivalent. It's the equivalent of the man telling the woman, don't be so emotional, because actually, I'm really emotional.
Adrienne Neufeld [00:39:21]:
Oh, yeah.
Kevin Thompson [00:39:22]:
The same thing is happening there. It's actually, I don't want you to suffer because it actually creates suffering within me. You know what? I love you so much.
Adrienne Neufeld [00:39:29]:
I will. That's what Jesus did on the cross. It's all making sense.
Blaine Neufeld [00:39:33]:
It is.
Kevin Thompson [00:39:34]:
Adrienne just had a gospel moment right there.
Adrienne Neufeld [00:39:36]:
I am seeing how we parent, like, how Jesus parents.
Blaine Neufeld [00:39:42]:
We want to be more like Jesus.
Adrienne Neufeld [00:39:43]:
He sets the law because he's like, I want to be your friend in the suffering. I want to be beside you. I don't want to, like, make, you.
Blaine Neufeld [00:39:51]:
Know, the judge only. And. Yes, that. And the other thing. Yeah, and it is. You know what's fun about this is we're in a season now where I'm having spiritual awakenings. I'm hearing words and giving prophecy and feeling like I'm growing. She's over there saying, what about me? What about me? And then to see it in real time.
Blaine Neufeld [00:40:11]:
You know, this is an answer to prayer. Yeah, this is. This is lovely.
Kevin Thompson [00:40:14]:
Great stuff. Love it. Before we have a closing thought, let's. Let's think through a few things. First of all, you can always text in marriage to 56316 your fight, Adrienne Neufeld. Drianneufeld on Instagram. You can DM there. If you're listening, you can always go to our YouTube channel and watch because that is far more entertaining.
Blaine Neufeld [00:40:31]:
Oh, yes.
Kevin Thompson [00:40:32]:
Earlier. Earlier, you're doing something with your hands. And I wanted to say, hey, by the way, if you don't understand what Blaine's talking about right now, just watch.
Blaine Neufeld [00:40:38]:
This video and then that, and then this and then that.
Kevin Thompson [00:40:42]:
But on this issue, whenever we talk about parenting, let's think about it in this way. So often where these discussions go on, these fights is who's right? That's not the question. The question is, what do we need to do to do right? And how do we move forward? And so every couple hits attention that's like, this one of them wants to raise these really respectful kids. The other one wants to raise these really regulated, connected kids. But begin to notice that we tend to think these are two different goals. They're not. It's our desire to create health in ourselves and also in others. So whenever we begin to see these as the same goals that are just kind of based on different fears, different attachments, different personalities, it then empowers us to lean into each other and to recognize I'VE got a way, but it's not completely right.
Kevin Thompson [00:41:32]:
And if we can begin to learn how to do that, and in some way, then we can begin to ask the question, what does love look like right now? Maybe it's my way. Maybe it's their way. Maybe it's a third way. But either way, we want to go the way of love, not the way of fear. And whenever we choose love over fear, we've gone a long way.
Blaine Neufeld [00:41:51]:
Well, what's going to happen?
Kevin Thompson [00:41:53]:
Oh, my goodness.
Blaine Neufeld [00:41:54]:
What's going to happen is this.
Kevin Thompson [00:41:55]:
And this.
Blaine Neufeld [00:41:56]:
And then we're going to change the odds.
Adrienne Neufeld [00:41:57]:
You should have given it to me.
Kevin Thompson [00:41:58]:
We'll see you next time.