Blaine Neufeld [00:00:00]:
Welcome back to Change the Odds podcast. We don't do this a lot, but we have a real treat, Adrienne and I. There's no Kevin in the room, which is sometimes preferred by the listener. We found out. I'm kidding. He will now. But we've got a wealth of wisdom in the room with Paul and Virginia Friesen. And this is, I feel like, Smart List babe, where the co authors of Smart List co host they don't know who the guest is.
Blaine Neufeld [00:00:26]:
And Adrienne hasn't been privy as to your story.
Adrienne Neufeld [00:00:30]:
Met you guys just now.
Blaine Neufeld [00:00:31]:
Yes. And I'm so excited because there's stories on stories and there's directions this whole thing can go. But I think for her sake and the listener's sake, a little bit of a biopic of yourself. I know you guys aren't braggers and you're very, very humble. It's part of your story. But at the same time, tell us a bit about you guys, because there is a story here.
Virginia Friesen [00:00:52]:
Well, do you want me to start at the very beginning? No. Paul and I just celebrated our 50th annivers on April 24th, and we were blessed along the line with three daughters, all who are now in their 40s.
Adrienne Neufeld [00:01:06]:
Okay.
Virginia Friesen [00:01:07]:
And they are all following Jesus. Two are married and in full time ministry.
Blaine Neufeld [00:01:12]:
Wow.
Virginia Friesen [00:01:12]:
The third is a professor at a Christian university. And We've spent all 50 years of our life in marriage ministry. So it's ranged from running a camp for many years and developing a pretty extensive family camp program to somewhere along the line getting our Doctor of Ministry degrees in marriage and family therapy. So we've done a lot of counseling. We spent many years leading a Bible study for the New England Patriot couples in the NFL. That's so cool. And for what, 23 years now, we've been on the road as itinerant speakers and family and marriage events along the way.
Paul Friesen [00:01:47]:
We're on a church staff and we're in charge of family and men's ministry for nine years at a church in New England. Wow. We met in San Diego. I was on InterVarsity Christian Fellowship staff college ministry and met Virginia's sisters. They invited me over to their house for a lunch and tried to set me up with Virginia's sister. One older than her.
Adrienne Neufeld [00:02:09]:
Oh, the other sister.
Paul Friesen [00:02:11]:
And I kept saying, where's your younger sister? It took a little while, but I got her there.
Blaine Neufeld [00:02:18]:
So was there a little bit. Some of them know our story where there was a lot of pursuing on one way, mine to hers, and there was conv. Was there a Bit of a convincing that had to happen. Or how did you fall in love with the great Paul?
Virginia Friesen [00:02:32]:
Well, I have to tell you, when we met, I was in college. Paul was out of college, he was on intervarsity staff. And I just knew immediately I'd never met a more godly man. Somebody who was. I heard him teach a lot and I thought, oh my goodness, there is such a congruence between what he teaches and actually how he lives life and having been raised in the church and. And I wasn't seeing that among other college age men. But it didn't spawn any kind of a romantic response. Cause I was 19 when we met.
Virginia Friesen [00:03:03]:
I just thought he was the greatest guy ever. And we became literally best friends. So for almost the whole first year of our knowing each other, we just built this really great friendship. Could talk about anything. Cause there was no pretense. We had no thought that something was gonna happen.
Blaine Neufeld [00:03:18]:
Wow.
Virginia Friesen [00:03:19]:
In my mind.
Blaine Neufeld [00:03:20]:
Right.
Paul Friesen [00:03:20]:
In fact, one night she dreamt that she married me. She woke up crying.
Blaine Neufeld [00:03:27]:
Oh.
Virginia Friesen [00:03:28]:
On the other hand, I think that you had more of a. More romantic interest earlier than I did.
Blaine Neufeld [00:03:33]:
I'm sure you had many dreams, right?
Paul Friesen [00:03:34]:
Yeah, no, I. Most godly fun woman. We actually ended up dating for two and a half years. I broke up twice during that time with her, which was stupid, but once was I just enjoyed being with other women and you know, at conferences and stuff, I said, oh, there's. I shouldn't settle down yet. And that ended soon. And then another one. I just had no physical attraction to her.
Paul Friesen [00:04:04]:
And I remember telling my mentor, I said, she's the most godly woman I know, the most fun woman I know. Wise woman I know, but I just don't have a physical attraction. And he said, well, don't worry, it'll come. And I said, I have not kept myself for 25 years to hope it's going to come. I said, it better come hard before I marry. And so literally, we were apart for a while. And one day the scales fell off my eyes. And I believe God put those scales on so that I would really love who she was, not just how beautiful she was.
Paul Friesen [00:04:37]:
Wow. I was raised in a home where my father said, character is more important than beauty. Beauty is vain. So I always thought I was going to have to marry somebody who was godly but ugly. And so to see those two things come together, that she is godly and beautiful. But we were broken up. She's dating another guy during that time. But I come to my senses, say, hey, could we have breakfast? We have breakfast together.
Paul Friesen [00:04:59]:
I'm going to say, let's get back together. Because we had said if we ever got back together, we'd get married.
Blaine Neufeld [00:05:03]:
Okay?
Paul Friesen [00:05:04]:
It was we. And so I went into breakfast ready to propose, and she said, I've got something to say to you. And I said, I've got something to say. You go first. She said, I'm over you.
Virginia Friesen [00:05:13]:
Oh, the drama, the drama.
Paul Friesen [00:05:17]:
So I made one of the sort of crazy statements at the end. I said, listen, if he proposes to you, call me before you give an answer. Because I was desperate. I go, what a fool I am that I broke up with her. God intervened, and we got married.
Virginia Friesen [00:05:34]:
Wow, that's a sweet.
Blaine Neufeld [00:05:35]:
That is super sweet and encouraging because, you know, maybe one day. Baby, I've never called you that ever in my life.
Adrienne Neufeld [00:05:41]:
Don't do it again.
Blaine Neufeld [00:05:43]:
Maybe the scales will fall off your eyes and you'll 1. Be attracted to me.
Virginia Friesen [00:05:48]:
Okay, stop.
Blaine Neufeld [00:05:49]:
This is an ongoing piece, but I
Adrienne Neufeld [00:05:50]:
will say it wasn't. It wasn't an immediate attraction. It was a. I loved his personality. I love. He made me laugh. Our friendship is what really drew me in. But he wore a lot of tracksuits in high school, and I didn't think those were attractive.
Blaine Neufeld [00:06:04]:
And in a good marriage, as we'll continue to talk about, I've made great effort to appease some of the things.
Virginia Friesen [00:06:11]:
Yes.
Adrienne Neufeld [00:06:11]:
Look at you now.
Blaine Neufeld [00:06:12]:
My wardrobe.
Paul Friesen [00:06:13]:
Yeah, you're sharp.
Adrienne Neufeld [00:06:14]:
I know. Look at him. I dress him.
Blaine Neufeld [00:06:17]:
But one of the strategies, and I think it's a tip for many people, is if your wife is into appearance and aesthetics of.
Adrienne Neufeld [00:06:23]:
Don't make me sound.
Blaine Neufeld [00:06:24]:
No, no, no. But it's. It's attractive.
Adrienne Neufeld [00:06:27]:
I mean. I mean, put. Put together. I don't need you to want me
Blaine Neufeld [00:06:29]:
to be a slob, and I. And I don't care enough and I should care more. And so I have allowed the wardrobe to be so set that if I decide what to wear, it falls in amongst her categories.
Virginia Friesen [00:06:42]:
It works.
Adrienne Neufeld [00:06:42]:
We're making it as easy as we can for him to.
Virginia Friesen [00:06:45]:
Yeah.
Blaine Neufeld [00:06:46]:
So it's great.
Virginia Friesen [00:06:47]:
So basically you're saying that you're better together, which is what we absolutely agree as well.
Adrienne Neufeld [00:06:51]:
Yes, we are.
Paul Friesen [00:06:52]:
He.
Adrienne Neufeld [00:06:53]:
He, like, lifts me up when I need to be. Like, he, you know, puts me in my place.
Blaine Neufeld [00:06:57]:
And I'm a great. I'm over here. And she. She's a rock. And she brings security and. And. And some other questions I would never, ever think about. And together.
Blaine Neufeld [00:07:07]:
And we were talking briefly, without you there, babe, of how together at A coffee that we had had earlier this morning actually with another couple, how igniting it was for me, inspiring and hopeful for the future because here I'm having a lot of copies with people trying to be giving godly wisdom, but to have her side by side, the 1, 2, God being 1, 2, 3, punch together. I was like, wow, we're hitting this couple in a whole different way that I could ever reach.
Adrienne Neufeld [00:07:34]:
And it was fun.
Blaine Neufeld [00:07:35]:
What a team.
Adrienne Neufeld [00:07:35]:
Like, I think the I don't need to make it about us, but we just have so much fun together and
Blaine Neufeld [00:07:40]:
we're on mission together, we're making it about marriage. Because their wisdom, and they're saying this to me before, was when you can kind of see those strengths with one another and empower each other to kind of do the mission of whatever that is. And you've seen this time and time again.
Virginia Friesen [00:07:55]:
Well, that's been our greatest joy in ministry, is that though we are very, very different from personality standpoint. I'm licensed in Myers Briggs, so if you follow that, rather than the Enneagram, we'll just switch over to mbti. Paul is an infp. He's that very visionary personality, last minute sort of guy. And I'm an esfj, so I'm on the other end of that. But because of that, we recognized early that in the hands of the enemy, that would divide us and it would destroy us. But in the hands of God, it could be made into something that we could never do on our own. And we've just loved the special niche that God has carved out for us, is that we've always ministered together.
Virginia Friesen [00:08:38]:
So we do all our speaking together, we do all our counseling together. I love that. And I'll tell you, counseling, I'll just say when you have two on two, both genders represented in the counseling room, everybody feels safe. And we find that you just cut through things so much faster than you do. If just I were with a couple or just Paul's with a couple, or
Paul Friesen [00:08:59]:
if you're individually, we started, I would meet with the man, Virginia would meet with the wife and I'd come home and I said, I don't believe in divorce, but that poor man, I mean living with a woman who's cold like that, non responsive. And Virginia would say, well, did he happen to mention that he's had an affair? And I said, oh, that never came up. Virginia would say, I don't believe in divorce, but that poor woman lives with that man who's unfaithful. And I said, did, did she mention that she is so critical and controlling and cold.
Blaine Neufeld [00:09:32]:
Right.
Paul Friesen [00:09:32]:
And. Oh, no, that didn't come up. And when they're in the room together, it all comes up.
Adrienne Neufeld [00:09:37]:
Interesting. That is very interesting.
Blaine Neufeld [00:09:39]:
You've done tons of counseling and is like kind of we. What we've talked about too, is like, we want this listener to be whatever the side of the spouse is that relates with a Kevin or an Adrienne. And the one that I want them to say, you need to listen to this. And we want to represent both opinions and voices very, very well. One of the great reasons, I'm sure people come to see you is to say, help us fix this. Is this a very common thing where they're just misaligning and saying this something maybe saying the same thing, but they're saying it totally different, and you bridge that together or.
Paul Friesen [00:10:13]:
Well, I think often. And you touched it already in temperament, we're just so different. And I'm the dreamer. And in our early marriage, I'd have a big dream, and Virginia was really good at popping that dream. And so, and so we weren't. We were at tension rather than, let's talk how we could work together.
Blaine Neufeld [00:10:34]:
Okay.
Paul Friesen [00:10:34]:
And Virginia, she said, is very present. She's there. I am not. I mean, we travel every week and, you know, we're always TSA approved. And one week we got to Logan airport in Boston. We're early, and I didn't have tsa. And so instead of arguing, I just said, you go through tsa, I'll go through the ordinary folk. And, you know, you know, it is.
Paul Friesen [00:10:56]:
Take off your shoes, your belt and your, your laptop, and got on the other side, and I'm putting on my shoes. And a gentleman said, excuse me, sir, but those would be my shoes you just put on. And I said, oh, I'm so sorry. I said, I don't know what shoes I put on this morning. I just. These fit. They came off next. I thought they were mine.
Paul Friesen [00:11:13]:
He was very polite. And then I'm putting on my belt, cinching up. He said, and that would be my belt. Virginia cannot comprehend how somebody is so absent minded, But I'm the one who develops our curriculum, but Virginia is the one who, you know, makes sure we're not in jail because she does our checkbook and she knows where things are filed, and she raises question, is that really, you know, viable what you're dreaming about? And I think, as Virginia said, Satan wants to use that. You know, number one reason given on divorce certificates is incompatibility. And I think Every couple is incompatible.
Adrienne Neufeld [00:11:49]:
Yeah.
Paul Friesen [00:11:49]:
It's just. Are you going to let Satan use those differences to divide you, or are you going to say, wow, that's interesting? I never thought of it that way. Tell me more about that. And you're better together. And I think that's been our challenge. I. I'm just annoying my temperament because I'm a slob in so many ways. I'm not organized.
Paul Friesen [00:12:08]:
I'm not.
Adrienne Neufeld [00:12:08]:
Virginia's nodding
Paul Friesen [00:12:11]:
so I can defend myself. But Virginia has learned to appreciate the differences.
Blaine Neufeld [00:12:18]:
Okay, okay. So I hear you've got gifts. She's got gifts. But before you discovered a secure attachment as Kevin, he talks a lot about this. So the listeners kind of in this mode right now. You've been able to build that, but too many of us are still seeking. What's that first step? There would have been lots of fights, I'm sure. Still fights, but now they're good fights.
Blaine Neufeld [00:12:38]:
But fights of figuring that territory out. And you guys talk a lot about selflessness and marriage. How did that start? What does the listener kind of need to start to do if they're in the stage of, no, I'm a visionary. I do it this way. I see this. And she's on the other side saying, I see it this way. How do they start start figuring that out?
Paul Friesen [00:12:59]:
Well, I think respect is huge in that, just respecting that God is the one who's created us uniquely. It's never an excuse for sin. But he created me to be a visionary, to think out there, created Virginia to think this way. And when we came to the point where we started respecting that, I'm an introvert. Virginia's the extrovert. I'm what they call a professional extrovert. I act like I like people, but I don't. No, that's not it.
Adrienne Neufeld [00:13:26]:
You know me.
Blaine Neufeld [00:13:26]:
You know me.
Paul Friesen [00:13:29]:
It's just exhausting. I'd rather speak to a thousand people than sit at a table with six people I've never met before. But. So Virginia is the last one out of every gathering. I'm the first one out. Now, we can harp at each other about that. What's wrong with you? But where I've come is I'm so thankful I'm married to Virginia. That's the only reason we have friends, because she asks interesting questions.
Paul Friesen [00:13:53]:
She engages with people. So you can either resent it or you can say, wow, I'm so thankful for that.
Virginia Friesen [00:13:59]:
Yeah. I think the other reality is that what we know about original sin is that we've all got it right. That's how we all start out with this predisposition to having it my way. Life is about me. And as we're watching in our culture, which is greatly influenced by Internet, by social media and all the rest, and we're watching the rates of narcissism go through the roof, you just didn't used to hear it spoken of so clearly as it is today. So it's just a reality. So I think we've got this thing internally which predisposes me to be about myself, which runs roughshod over any relationship, but especially the marriage relationship. Right.
Virginia Friesen [00:14:41]:
And we have a world that keeps feeding into it. Just, you know, have it your way. You do deserve a break today. Your happiness is the only thing that matters. It is all about you. Well, that's a recipe for disaster in marriage, which is where sacrificial love, which is selflessness, which is Jesus came not to be served, but to serve. Which is where Philippians 2 says do nothing from selfishness or empty conceit, but in all things consider another before yourself. So the message of the Bible runs directly against the message of the culture, which is validated and constantly, we're constantly bombarded by those messages.
Blaine Neufeld [00:15:21]:
Yeah.
Virginia Friesen [00:15:22]:
So I think that for us way, way back in the beginning when we realized, I honestly didn't think we would have any issues. We both came from great Christian families, we both had a ministry call, we got along super well. I thought he walked on water. Seriously. He's just such an incredibly gifted human being. Genuinely, I feel that way today, 50 years later. But because we didn't live together before we married, which we agree with, I had no idea that he thought clothes should be left on a floor, for instance.
Adrienne Neufeld [00:15:54]:
Oh, interesting, Blaine.
Virginia Friesen [00:15:55]:
Yeah, interesting. And I had no idea, I disagree here, Virginia. I had no idea that I'd always be able to find out where he was in the house or where he had been because there would be a trail.
Blaine Neufeld [00:16:05]:
Right.
Virginia Friesen [00:16:07]:
And those things to me, they just jumped right out at me. And I honestly thought all he needed was some coaching. Clearly he had missed Adulting 101 for sure. And it would only take a little bit of time to get him up to speed. And I was sort of shocked that the behavior continued to repeat. And it wasn't because he was a selfish, self serving human being. He's truly the most servant hearted person I know. But as we understood the differences in our temperaments, I think the first step for us was really confronting this isn't about me.
Virginia Friesen [00:16:40]:
It's not about me having the house exactly the way I want it. We need to work together to make this work in a God honoring way. And I think because it has always been the deepest part of our heart for a marriage to genuinely be a reflection of the Godhead, which we think is the design of marriage, that I think that that was the impetus for us saying, I don't know, we don't want to be arguing over these same things 20, 30, 40 years from now, which we saw happening in older marriages. We want it to be different.
Paul Friesen [00:17:10]:
Yeah, it's a lot about selfishness, you know, Again, we were just counseling a couple this week who only been married for what, two or three years? Second marriage for both, and they are now not living together. They have separated for a period of time. We thought, how sad after such a short time. And we said, well, what was it that sort of. What was the impetus of that? He said, well, she needs to know what my needs are and I need sleep. And the other morning at 5:45 in the morning, I'm wakened because I hear her singing downstairs. And I came down and told her how rude that was for her to wake me up, you know, I need my sleep. And she said, and I said I was singing softly, I was not.
Paul Friesen [00:18:00]:
You're overreacting. What do you mean? You have to have a sleep, you know. And they got in a fight and that was it. And we said at the end, we said, let's rewind that. How could that have been done differently? What would have happened if you came down at 5:45 and said, Sweetheart, your voice is beautiful. I love hearing you sing praise music. And you probably don't know it, but I was awakened by that. And if you could do that in the future in another room, that would be helpful.
Paul Friesen [00:18:26]:
And if she said, oh, I'm so sorry, I know you need your sleep, I didn't even think about that, what a difference it would make. But when one attacked, the other attacked and they had no conversation. It was just fighting. Where if we're looking to the interest of the person, we think first about them. And it's easier to say in the podcast, but yeah, that's really the gospel is. Is putting the other person ahead of yourself.
Blaine Neufeld [00:18:51]:
Yeah. And you guys, obviously you've affected this and perfected this now, but there is a training that has to happen there. Right. You don't necessarily just wake up and your first thought is someone else. That is, you know what your point is? The original sin is, ah, what about me this day? But when you can start to do that, and that's where I think, because we've gained this secure attachment, we're in a great relationship. And we've used this example before. When a certain spouse in our relationship gets a little angry in. In the morning.
Blaine Neufeld [00:19:26]:
I don't. I don't typically assume I've done something wrong. I ask the qu. Like, what's really going on? I know the attack is coming to me. I know that I'm a safe place, which isn't all.
Adrienne Neufeld [00:19:39]:
It's not always fair. Sometimes he is my punching bag, and I need to adjust that as well. I see that.
Blaine Neufeld [00:19:45]:
Maybe today.
Adrienne Neufeld [00:19:46]:
Sure.
Blaine Neufeld [00:19:46]:
We'll try this morning.
Adrienne Neufeld [00:19:47]:
Yeah.
Blaine Neufeld [00:19:48]:
Right. So the example this morning was woke up. I am all smiles. We've got this great. We're going to have you guys on the podcast. We're doing a thing at the church. This is fun. We love people.
Blaine Neufeld [00:19:59]:
We love being servant and used in the mission of Jesus Christ. This is going to be a good day. I wake up thinking, Adrienne's with me. You're going to go to a coffee. This is going to be fun. I get woken up by. I'm a little bit of a later sleeper than her.
Adrienne Neufeld [00:20:13]:
Yeah. I've already been up for an hour with the kids, so maybe look alive, Judy.
Blaine Neufeld [00:20:17]:
Well, no, the exact words were, boom, the door bangs open.
Adrienne Neufeld [00:20:22]:
I think it was a normal.
Blaine Neufeld [00:20:23]:
And she goes, oh, wow, you're not going to sleep any longer. And it was this passive aggressive way.
Adrienne Neufeld [00:20:28]:
You're on your phone. So you're just laying in bed on your phone.
Paul Friesen [00:20:33]:
See how we get a different perspective?
Adrienne Neufeld [00:20:35]:
Yeah.
Paul Friesen [00:20:36]:
We need both sleep. Oh, on your phone.
Blaine Neufeld [00:20:39]:
Yeah.
Adrienne Neufeld [00:20:39]:
You are relaxing away.
Blaine Neufeld [00:20:42]:
And she says, oh, wow, you're going to wake up. And I was like, how you doing, babe? What's going on here? And the end result was there was a couple things in her world, in her brain that were happening that she wasn't happy with. And we were able to express those. And you were able to say it. And did you feel better after?
Adrienne Neufeld [00:20:59]:
Yeah, I did.
Blaine Neufeld [00:21:00]:
And we're having a great day.
Adrienne Neufeld [00:21:02]:
It's been a great day.
Blaine Neufeld [00:21:02]:
It has been a great day.
Virginia Friesen [00:21:03]:
Yeah.
Adrienne Neufeld [00:21:04]:
But I am quick to turn on him, and then he reels me back in. I'm like, okay, you're right.
Virginia Friesen [00:21:10]:
Which is why this point is really well taken. Which is the thing is often not the thing exactly right.
Blaine Neufeld [00:21:15]:
Yeah.
Paul Friesen [00:21:15]:
We have done this at a number of conferences. Think about your last argument. What was it? The issue is very seldom the reason it became so intense.
Adrienne Neufeld [00:21:26]:
Oh, yeah.
Paul Friesen [00:21:26]:
It's. Maybe it was about finances, but it's you're just like your mother, and you're just. And then. Well, then it starts flying. What hurts us is not the finances.
Virginia Friesen [00:21:38]:
Right.
Paul Friesen [00:21:38]:
What hurts us is you just said, I'm inept or I'm, you know, selfish or. And then we go at each other, and that's where it comes back to. Are we first interested in really honoring God in the way we treat each other?
Blaine Neufeld [00:21:52]:
Yeah, I love that. I love that. So I have a couple. I mean, I haven't even gotten to my questions here in order.
Adrienne Neufeld [00:21:57]:
Oh, my God.
Blaine Neufeld [00:21:58]:
Halfway into this bad boy. So one of the thoughts I was having, because I was watching these guys work the rooms yesterday and do your thing at this event that we're at, and Adrienne wasn't able to be there, but it was very interesting to me, observing you. People are attracted to you. They love this. If you were to describe your marriage as what is our message? What is it that you're hoping your marriage gives off to the people around you, your kids, your environment? What is kind of that message you would give off? What do you think it says?
Paul Friesen [00:22:30]:
That's a great question.
Blaine Neufeld [00:22:32]:
That's why I asked it.
Virginia Friesen [00:22:33]:
Yeah, that's a very good question. I would say that the deepest place in our heart once our marriage, to help people find Jesus and to believe that there's no situation that is hopeless, that our hope really is in him. He's a designer of marriage. He's the definer of marriage, and he's the fueler of marriage, if you will. So for us, especially through our counseling and speaking, we want people to have a vision of hope that marriage can work. I think people are so over marriage. I mean, you're watching the statistics, and they keep dropping. For the percentage of people that are married today in America, it's dropped below 50%.
Virginia Friesen [00:23:18]:
And the rate of cohabitation, same sex marriage, all of these other things that are pulling people off. Or now let's just throw in chatbots. It's amazing how many young people especially, are eschewing marriage. It's like, yeah, that's not for me. And part of it is you've got this massive groundswell of use of pornography. So quote, unquote, needs are being met, whatever.
Blaine Neufeld [00:23:40]:
Right?
Virginia Friesen [00:23:40]:
And then you've got these chatgpt and places that people can now go for relational connectedness.
Adrienne Neufeld [00:23:47]:
Yeah.
Virginia Friesen [00:23:47]:
For advice, for counsel. And so as more and more of that gets mainstreamed in our culture, I think that many, many people who have grown up in homes where marriage wasn't a good thing.
Blaine Neufeld [00:24:00]:
Yeah.
Virginia Friesen [00:24:00]:
I don't think they have any belief that marriage can. Can be a good thing. So they're more than happy to delegate their needs, if you will, to a non marriage status.
Adrienne Neufeld [00:24:10]:
Yeah.
Paul Friesen [00:24:11]:
Yeah. I think ultimately we want people to see that God's design is great and that his design of marriage is perfect because he's perfect. And so the problem isn't with marriage. The problem is with sinful people in marriage. And for us, I think we just want people to see it can be fun.
Virginia Friesen [00:24:31]:
Yeah.
Paul Friesen [00:24:31]:
We can be real. I mean, we are transparent. We. You know, as I said, I irritate Virginia every day, just temperamentally. I'm just different. You know, I spilled food at lunch on my pants. You know, that's just.
Blaine Neufeld [00:24:44]:
We sound a lot alike.
Adrienne Neufeld [00:24:45]:
You know, every day Blaine has a drip of coffee on his shirt or lasagna or like, something.
Paul Friesen [00:24:51]:
Well, when we speak at dinner meeting, I often will take two shirts.
Adrienne Neufeld [00:24:55]:
Oh, smart. Blaine, you need to always keep a shirt in your car.
Paul Friesen [00:24:58]:
Always eat in and then one to change in after I've dribbled down.
Blaine Neufeld [00:25:02]:
Whatever it is changed my life here.
Paul Friesen [00:25:04]:
Yeah, but she still has same clothes she's had for 20 years. I mean, because she takes such care of everything, you know, it's just. So anyway, we want people to see that. It doesn't mean you have to be perfect and you just. But you forgive quick. Like, you guys had a little thing this morning, and unless you're just doing it for the podcast, I think that's it. Like, okay, well, I'm so sorry. I think one of the indicators for how well a marriage is doing is how long it takes for you to come back.
Paul Friesen [00:25:37]:
So we'll maybe have something in the morning, but on the way to the office, almost always I'll text or Virginia will text or call, say, I'm sorry, I was really a jerk. Usually I'm the one who says I was a jerk, because I am. But we settle it, and then life's not worth losing days over this nonsense.
Adrienne Neufeld [00:25:56]:
Yeah, nonsense.
Blaine Neufeld [00:25:58]:
This is the point that this is. Now is a good time here. You guys counsel a lot of couples, and you told me a statistic on how many people get divorced or not divorced as you're counseling them for a specific reason. Let's put that in there now.
Paul Friesen [00:26:12]:
Well, people often ask us, you know, what are your stats on success in counseling? And we'll say, we have never had a couple divorce if they're both been committed to the one thing that we suggest for both of them. And you'll always get never. And we say, no, 100%. Never had a couple. And so after teasing it for a while, the issue is if your highest goal is to glorify God, if you're both Christians and your highest goal is genuinely to glorify God, you'll never divorce. You cannot glorify God and get divorced. Now, you can be divorced and glorify God, but if you're both seeking to glorify God, you may have a marriage that isn't quite what you thought it would be, but you still can serve each other, be kind to each other, be considerate, and for the sake of your children, if nothing else, you don't divorce. Because that's not what God wants.
Paul Friesen [00:27:06]:
And so it sounds like a Sunday school answer, but we just see it trickle down from, if you say, would I glorify God by saying this to my wife? No. Okay, well, then that trickles how I communicate, it trickles out what I do in the kitchen, it trickles out how we make love. It goes to everything. And so I think often we're shooting too low. We're saying, let's have a good marriage, okay? Let's have a date night every week. Let's don't say you make me mad, say you make me sad. You know, we have all these tools, but unless the hardest change, we all know we're playing a non sustainable game. And when the tension is severe enough, that's when it all blows up.
Blaine Neufeld [00:27:50]:
And I imagine that there's so many nuances in all these relationships that you've met that there's been tragedy, there's been serious events or consequences that have actions to their, even the reason that they're in the chair talking to you. So you see a lot of repair if the people are saying, okay, pause right here. From here on out, please. This is going to be a monumental climb for us. I'm sure there's been cases of this and you're saying you're swinging 100% if these people are saying Jesus is number one.
Adrienne Neufeld [00:28:21]:
And so what if only one is saying Jesus?
Virginia Friesen [00:28:25]:
And so we've lost couples in that situation. Okay? Right. So that's the key, is that both have to be fully surrendered to the ultimate goal of glorifying God with their marriage. And you can't make somebody have that be the posture of their heart. So we have had some really heartbreaking situations where one is just so fully surrendered, would be willing to do anything within biblical grounds to keep the marriage going. And they have a partner who's just not there. They're just not interested in doing that. But it is very true.
Virginia Friesen [00:29:02]:
We've somehow. One of our specialties has been walking with couples in the aftermath of infidelity. And we sort of got involved in restoration ministry way back in the 80s when one of our mentors, who was a world renowned global speaker, author and mentor of ours, it was revealed that he had been involved in an extramarital affair.
Adrienne Neufeld [00:29:23]:
You're a mentor?
Virginia Friesen [00:29:25]:
Oh, no. Yeah, well, they've celebrated six years of marriage now, but that was at year 30 that it came out.
Adrienne Neufeld [00:29:33]:
Oh, so they stayed together.
Virginia Friesen [00:29:34]:
Yeah, they stayed together. And that's where that's sort of what carved the niche for us of really breathing hope into couples when infidelity has really blown up their relationship. I think that there's a camp that believes, oh, once that happens, there's no hope. I mean, no, just you got biblical grounds. Leave the marriage. We always say you can leave the marriage. If the spouse that's been unfaithful is not repentant, the marriage can't survive. Right.
Virginia Friesen [00:30:01]:
But we have had the privilege of walking with so many couples where there's genuine repentance. We actually. The first book we wrote is entitled Restoring the Fallen, and it gives a template for coming alongside a couple who is moving towards restoration. And we have just seen time after time, dozens, hundreds of couples who are strong in their marriage today, who at one point people would have just written off and said, yeah, this is going to be happening. But if a person is genuinely repentant, then there's tremendous hope for restoration. That's the cross. That is the message of the gospel.
Paul Friesen [00:30:38]:
We often say that if in California, especially real, if you have an earthquake and a house is damaged, you have three options. One is just buy another house, move on. One is just put plaster on the outside and act like it's really fine and it looks great, but then when the next tremor happens, it falls. Or get rid of all the rubble and then build on another foundation. And so I think that's so applicable in marriage. Oh, I'm just going to find another spouse. Or let's act like nothing happened and don't tell anybody. We'll just live.
Paul Friesen [00:31:15]:
But you don't deal with it. And the third is no, confess, forgive, get rid of that. And from day, from today on, we're living this. We're not going backwards, but we're going to build on a solid foundation. And this sounds odd, but some of the strongest marriages we know today are where they've been affairs. We don't recommend that as an avenue to it.
Adrienne Neufeld [00:31:35]:
Because they have to do the work for the foundation. Yeah. The repair is. Creates a.
Blaine Neufeld [00:31:41]:
And Kevin talks a lot about preemptive work. Right. So what we're saying here is they had a mishap in their marriage, and then they discovered, oh, we should build the foundation. We want to do that now before they spend. These guys spend a ton of time in that premarital space. I think this is applicable as well. You guys are very well known for sacrificial love. And so this topic of putting the other one in their desires and their needs and their giftings potentially ahead of yours at this time and how that kind of works.
Blaine Neufeld [00:32:10]:
So it's like, walk us through a little bit of that world, because I think the person that could be listening to say, okay, I don't want to. That to ever happen. What do I do now in order to maybe I have a good marriage? There's no. I've been married to 10 years, but I haven't heard some of these things. And. And he works over there, and I work over here, and we meet at night and we talk about. Yeah, it's good. But, like, how can we have a true marriage with some of those things that you guys talk about?
Paul Friesen [00:32:36]:
Well, it goes back to glorifying God and all. It's. It's very interesting. As we were working together on this, how many times Jesus says, follow me. And, you know, Peter says, well, what about John? And basically he says, none of your business. You follow me. He calls the disciples, leave everything. Follow me.
Paul Friesen [00:32:56]:
And I think if we really believe, that's my call not to excuse my behavior because of what Virginia does. I think a lot of couples do that. Well, I wouldn't have gotten mad or I wouldn't have been unfaithful. I wouldn't have looked at pornography if
Blaine Neufeld [00:33:12]:
you would have just.
Paul Friesen [00:33:14]:
And Jesus is saying, I think to us, it doesn't matter. I want you to follow me. You know, someone 39. Search her, oh God. And know her heart. And know what? That's my tendency instead of, no, search me, oh, God. And I think that's sort of the basis that we come back to. It's not about her.
Paul Friesen [00:33:37]:
It's about me. Husbands love your wife as Christ loved the church and gave himself up for her period.
Blaine Neufeld [00:33:43]:
Yeah.
Paul Friesen [00:33:43]:
Not unless she's. And then, yeah, wives submit your husband. Respect them. It doesn't say unless they leave their clothes on the floor. Unless they. Whatever. There's a period there.
Virginia Friesen [00:33:56]:
Yeah.
Paul Friesen [00:33:56]:
And I think that's. That's a preemptive work. Yeah. I think it's Ezekiel 17, isn't it? It says, blesses man who. It sort of goes along with Psalm 1, but the roots grow deep by the stream. And then it says what? Jeremiah 17.
Adrienne Neufeld [00:34:13]:
Great teamwork.
Paul Friesen [00:34:14]:
17 something. And it says, in the year of the drought, you will still bear fruit. And I love that, because in the year all marriages go through, a year of the drought may not be a full calendar year, but every marriage will hit a time. Well, what makes that marriage work? Their roots are deep into God's word and who he calls us to be.
Adrienne Neufeld [00:34:38]:
Yeah. And I don't know if I've said this before, but I also read. I don't know if it was that verse, but the commentary on bearing fruit is that you bear fruit for others. So it's like you're bearing fruit for your spouse. It's not even for you, it's to serve. Yeah.
Virginia Friesen [00:34:54]:
I think the other thing is, I feel like we had a very, very clear conviction about priorities from the day we got married, before our first child was born, which was. We were married four years before Carrie came along. And I remember very clearly as praying on the shoreline of the camp we were directing on Catalina island, just asking the Lord to protect us from ever sacrificing our marriage or our children on the altar of ministry. That's good. We had just seen this epidemic in the Christian community, and now we've had five decades of our own marriage together. And when a Christian marriage goes down, when a ministry marriage goes down, when children raised in a Christian ministry home just don't have anything at all to do, they're all part of the deconstruction movement and all the rest, it's just. That has a ripple effect. I was gonna say the same thing.
Virginia Friesen [00:35:45]:
So many people. And it's part of the reason that we're so passionate about doing really good work premaritally. I mean, we see the whole. We see as a stream that connects all the ends right from. From childbirth all the way through to the end of life. Because every single generation hinges in many ways on what has happened in the previous generation. And we believe with all of our hearts that part of the reason there's been this huge rate of attrition among kids raised in evangelical Christian homes. I mean, we're not just talking about.
Virginia Friesen [00:36:16]:
Yeah, we're not Buddhists, we're Christian, but ones that really identify as Christians who are regularly involved in church. But if you follow the Sticky Faith project that came out of Fuller probably 10 years ago by now, and they said there's somewhere between 80 and 90% of kids raised in Christian homes who are not continuing to pursue their faith after they leave home for either college or career. Well, that's a sobering statistic. And obviously the long story. We don't know. You just trust that a bunch of those kids are gonna come back. But our theory of having worked with families and marriages now for 50 years is that a lot of those kids grew up in homes, that the gospel wasn't lived at home. So everybody looked great at church.
Virginia Friesen [00:36:57]:
As long as the front stage is convincing, we call it appearance management. And if you put a ton of effort in appearance management, you will not put a ton of effort into sanctification. They're two very different roads. If the backstage and the front stage don't match, if they're not congruent with one another, nobody's convinced by that who grows up in your home? And it's like what Everybody thinks you're the greatest. But Monday through Saturday, there's so much fighting in our home. There's so much disrespect in our home. There's not honor.
Blaine Neufeld [00:37:27]:
He's not even there. He's doing minutes.
Virginia Friesen [00:37:30]:
Everything's more important than. And no kid is convinced that Jesus is worth surrendering your life to if they really didn't see the fruit of a surrendered life to him at home. Now, obviously that's a very big statement, and we realize that there are all sorts of extenuating circumstances and not everybody falls in that, but that's what we think is a major contribution, makes a major contribution to kids not being convinced that Jesus is really who he says he is.