Kevin Thompson [00:00:00]:
Why do most marriage books not work? Why is it that you can go to a marriage conference and your relationship literally experience no transformation whatsoever? Why is it that you go to a marriage retreat and you kind of feel more connected a little bit afterwards, but just a few weeks later you slip back into that very place that you were before? Why do all these tools that generations before didn't have, that we now have tend not to work? They don't work because they're working on the wrong floor of the house. And that's what we're going to talk about today on Change the Odds. Welcome to Change the Odds, the podcast where marriage and family were never meant to be a game of chance. My name is Kevin Thompson. No Blaine, No Adrienne. Today, just me and you. And today we're going to talk about this concept of what I call a two story house, a two story marriage. But before we jump into it, hey, you got to recognize all this stuff, as you know, is run by algorithm.
Kevin Thompson [00:00:54]:
And so we can produce all the material we want to produce, but if nobody ever sees it, it does us no good. And one of my great thrills kind of in life is to be at the airport, to be at a restaurant, to be at church, and to have somebody stop me and say, hey, you, Blaine and Adrienne, y' all talked about this topic the other day. It really helped. My wife and I, we really appreciate this work. I love it whenever I hear that what we're doing here is meaningful to you, but if nobody sees it, we can't do anything about it. So whatever platform you're watching on, if you're watching on YouTube, hit the little bell to subscribe on Spotify, on Apple. Go ahead and subscribe. It'll change the algorithm so more people can see this and it'll make it more accessible to you as well.
Kevin Thompson [00:01:33]:
But I remember as a little kid my parents built a house. And so in second grade we moved on this new street. It was a brand new development and the house that we were moving into is very nice, but very similar to the houses that we've had before. And yet on a certain part of the street, street, there were these two story houses which now I wouldn't even think about, wouldn't even consider. But back then, as a kid specifically, and the time in which I was coming about, a two story house signified something different. It signified an affluence, a wealth, a well being that maybe a one story house wouldn't signify. I remember going over to my friend's houses and their rooms were Upstairs you had all this distance from their parents. There were so many more things to explore.
Kevin Thompson [00:02:17]:
Now listen, when it comes to houses, one story, two story, three story, it doesn't matter. It just shows how much it actually costs. But when it comes to marriage, I want you to get the image that marriage exists in a two story house. And the reason that so many marriage books don't work and so many retreats don't have a long term lasting impact, so many conferences literally may not even make an impact that day is because all of them are fixated on the second story of the house. And while that's okay, and the second story needs some work, there's no question, before we can renovate the second story, we need to make sure that the first story is as healthy as it can be. And so most couples, I think, spend years trying to fix what I would call second floor problems when the first floor is just quietly kind of cracking away. And that's the struggle that's taking place. So let's think about, let's set in our heads this idea of what the two stories actually are.
Kevin Thompson [00:03:24]:
And so what it looks like now to have these two stories of marriage. So the second story, where most marriage books are written, where some of my marriage books are written, not all, but some actually are, the second floor is where the functional systems actually take place. So it's on the second floor that you learn the skills. That's the big issue. The second story are where the skills are built. So how are we going to handle money? What does partnership look like? How are the mental load of the house, the chores, the goals, the schedules, intimacy, all the things that we can learn. Communication. That would be a primary example of what this looks like.
Kevin Thompson [00:04:06]:
Many people talk about whenever asked, hey, the biggest problem with our relationship is we just have poor communication. But then John Gottman will say that many of the most successful couples he experiences, they have poor communication. So why is it that a successful couple can have poor communication and yet most couples believe it's a struggle in communication that is their biggest problem. It's because they don't realize that a healthy marriage literally does exist on these two stories. And they're fixated on this second story, the second story are skills. And skills are important in marriage. You can learn how to schedule intimacy, how to have better intimacy, how to understand what each other's likes. Sex is actually a skill to be learned.
Kevin Thompson [00:04:55]:
Money is a skill. How do we handle it? How are we going to budget? How are we going to plan? How are we going to consciously Spend. How are we going to make money? Do we understand what each of us understand? A perspective of what money is all about? How are we going to run a household? The work schedule, the chores? Who's going to mow the yard? Parenting. Parenting is a skill that you learn. Don't you feel if you have multiple kids, that with your first child, they were kind of your classroom to learn what parenting is all about? But for many people, that is what their marriage looks like. And so whenever they struggle, whenever there's a disconnection, there's a feeling of unhappiness, when the marriage isn't where they want it to be, if they actually do reach out and get help, and many don't even do that, they pick up a marriage book. And that marriage book is going to be about, okay, you got to have a date night, and here's how you handle money, and here's how you communicate better. Make sure you have these I statements instead of these blaming you statements.
Kevin Thompson [00:05:52]:
And they're teaching the couple all these skills. You go to a weekend away and all you can remember about that are the skills that they taught you. You're trying to implement all these skills, and you can become very efficient in those skills. And it doesn't feel like it makes any difference. I always say it this way whenever it comes to communication. You probably heard me say this. I can teach you to communicate better. But if that doesn't improve, and if you're let me try that, say that a different way.
Kevin Thompson [00:06:21]:
I can teach you to communicate better. But if your connection doesn't grow, it simply means that the divorce is going to be much more peaceful. You're going to use these I statements as you're explaining why I am about to leave you. Well, what's the point of that? And so here's where we have to understand the first floor of marriage. And we got to take care of what this first story actually looks like. And if the second story is skills, the first story of a healthy marriage is connection. It's this base kind of to change metaphors. It's the foundation upon which everything else is built.
Kevin Thompson [00:07:02]:
And if you learn all these skills of how to handle money, how to communicate, how to parent, how to have healthy intimacy, you, you can check all those boxes. But if your sense and feeling of connection isn't strong, those things really aren't going to help you now. But here's the powerful thing. When you have a good first story, when your connection is pretty strong, and then you go in and build that second story in on Top of it. And then you learn the skills and the categories of what makes a healthy marriage. Then the two of those work together that you can have a really strong house. But if you only had to choose one story over the other, it really is connection first and foremost. And then connection skills build on top of that.
Kevin Thompson [00:07:46]:
And that's where the power is. Well, what is this first floor? What does connection actually look like? And so this is where the issue of attachment comes in. As we spent what, five episodes on the idea of what a secure attachment truly feels like and what it looks like, a first story house that that has a strong secure attachment, then those skills can build on top of that. It's many parts of what are kind of the cornerstone ideas of friends, partners and lovers. You could almost say that friends, partners and lovers is the second story. But what are those things built on trust, respect and vulnerability. All of those are first story experiences that if you don't have trust, respect and vulnerability, it doesn't matter how well you communicate, your partner's not going to believe you, not going to respect what you have to say, you're not going to open up your heart, even as you're using the exact right words. And so the first story really is, it's the attachment, it's trust, it's respect, it's vulnerability, it's the ability to repair very quickly.
Kevin Thompson [00:08:49]:
Now I get that repair can be a second story skill. It is something that you learn. But I think so much of it is a heart, It's a, a mindset. It's a sense now of we're going to value this connection to such an extent that then we can do the work later in some other way. So the first floor really is kind of fighting for these questions of am I safe with you? Can I trust you with my flaws? When I call out, will you be there for me? So much what Sue Johnson talks about with her r questions and are questions. We've talked about this several times on the show of are you accessible? Are you responsive? So do I have access to you? Is there even a way for me to get to you once I do, are you responsive to me? And then are you engaged? Do you take your resources and engage them fully? In the issue that I'm bringing up, all of those are these first story issues that until we get that story of the house truly built, it doesn't matter what skills we add on top of that. So I want you to just kind of take your house. This is kind of what I've done here in my Notes.
Kevin Thompson [00:10:00]:
Just take your house and you can use that now as a picture, as a symbol of what the first story of your marriage actually needs to look like. And there's no science behind the actual rooms that I chose. You can change them around. But I was just sitting in my house thinking, all right, what will this room represent then? What will this other room represent? So at our house, there is an upstairs, and upstairs are where our bedrooms are. Silas has a bedroom at the end of the hallway. Ella is kind of in between us. Me and Jenny are on the end as well. And so that is where the house actually exists.
Kevin Thompson [00:10:32]:
And the second story of the house, think about intimacy, obviously, hopefully happens in our bedroom. This is Jenny's office is there. So that can symbolize the work life that we have to manage, the parenting that we have to deal with now, with an 18 year old and a 20 year old as well, the communication, how are the four of us communicating? How are Jenny and I communicating? Those are all the skills that are up there in the second story. But down to the first story, you have the living room and the kitchen and the dining room. The restroom is there, the laundry room as well. Let's use those rooms now as images of things that need to be in the first story of your marriage. And let's put our focus and our fixation on building those things. And then as we add in skills on top of that, then it will just bolster the connection that already exists.
Kevin Thompson [00:11:23]:
But you can't build skills with no connection because the skills won't ultimately lead where you want to go. So think about this idea of the kitchen. And in the kitchen, I think about the concept now of secure attachment, that it all kind of begins there. I know with many modern homes, the kitchen is where the first floor, everything else is built around it. That's supposed to be the gathering spot that everybody comes into. And I know in our house, at least with Jenny being around, the kitchen is kind of the centerpiece of what's going to happen, of our connection, of what that looks like. And so there's a question. Within this secure attachment now is again, Sue Johnson's Are youe There for.
Kevin Thompson [00:12:04]:
For Me. So what does your kitchen look like in your house? Is it just one person who's actually there, or is it this, this energetic intermingling spot that we can all come into? And whenever we're there, baking breakfast or looking in the refrigerator, doing whatever it is that we're doing, do we in that moment really feel like, man, I know you're on my Side, I have no doubt about it, the fact that the pantry is full now, man, you're doing this, and I'm over there. Maybe Jenny cooks dinner, and then I'm over there cleaning up afterwards. We're in this together, and we're here to support each other. What is the attachment of your relationship? I won't spend much time here. You can go listen to the previous whole series that we did on Love Styles because it's all about secure attachment. But if you do not have a secure attachment, money is not your problem. You fight over money because here's the funny thing about this.
Kevin Thompson [00:13:02]:
Marital problems rarely express themselves on the first floor. You don't fight on the first floor. You fight on the second floor. But what you're fighting about on the second floor is a problem on the first floor. Money's not your issue. Sex is not your issue. Communication is not your issue. Parenting is not your issue.
Kevin Thompson [00:13:19]:
I'm not saying you do those perfectly. You probably are as imperfect as anybody about those. And. And there's room to grow. But the real issue that's underneath the table as we talk about in Love Styles is this connection that is missing which is now expressing itself in all these other places. So the kitchen, to me is just this viewpoint of everything centers around that, and hopefully for us, centers around this secure attachment. And then you have the living room. And the living room, for me is just a place that we relax at the end of the day, most of the time.
Kevin Thompson [00:13:55]:
At the end of the night, after dinner, we finally recline back in the living room. Jenny has her laptop open. I have my laptop open. But there comes a point that we finally shut the laptops, probably turn on the television. We get close to each other on the couch. Maybe we watch a show or do something, watch a ball game. And in that moment, we're just connected. And so the living room, in many ways could be this idea of we're attuned to each other.
Kevin Thompson [00:14:24]:
Many episodes ago, we talked about two words that can change your marriage. To attend and to attune. What does it mean to attune? It means I'm going to now kind of zero in on the emotions that you have and how you're feeling. Are you tired? Are you energetic? Are you sad? Are you happy? What is it that you're experiencing at this moment? And in much the same way that you tune your guitar to what is right, I'm going to attune myself to you, and you're going to attune yourself to me and the living room to Me is the symbol of where that happens, where a deep breath is taken and your guard is let down. And now there is this space for. For me to truly see who you are and for you to see who I am. How's the living room in your relationship? Is there even time? And for some of you, this can be so difficult. You have children in our home.
Kevin Thompson [00:15:24]:
You're running a million different places. This, to me, is the great danger when your kids are kind of elementary age, even up into the early teenage years before they begin to drive, that you're being the taxicab driver for everybody. If you're not very careful in your literal living room, you might go several days and not even be there. But much less in the metaphorical living room of your marriage. There's never a time to literally take a deep breath, lean into each other, be physically present for each other, and understand how's your heart, how are your emotions, what are you feeling, what are you stressed about? And a couple has to have that sense of connection. So the kitchen for me is attachment. The living room now is attunement. And then there's a place.
Kevin Thompson [00:16:13]:
I don't know about you, but there's a place in our house. It's just the pantry. Here's the thing about the pantry. To me, the pantry, many times is where we stuff everything when guests are coming over. So guests might come over, obviously they're going to see the kitchen, they're going to be in the living room, they're going to have access to all of this kind of stuff. It's gonna look very clean. Cause we've cleaned it vigorously right before they came over. But there's a place in our house that is as messy as can be when the house is crowded with people.
Kevin Thompson [00:16:43]:
We just don't let people in there. As a matter of fact, if Jenny's in there cooking and some people are helping her, and Jenny's like, oh, I need to grab this out of the pantry. They might say, oh, I'll grab that for you. And Jenny's like, no, you're not. No, you're not going there. My guess is your house probably has a place or two this that nobody gets to go. If they're a guest. They'd have to be really familiar with you.
Kevin Thompson [00:17:01]:
It had to be a really great friend to be able to walk into your house and just open your pantry and see all the mess that is actually there and to not feel judged by them. So the pantry, to me, is that place of vulnerability, that place where you know and I know that you know that I don't have it all together. And I know and you know that I know that you don't have it all together, and that's okay. We're vulnerable with each other. We don't exploit that with each other. We don't notice this. We don't hide it from each other. We don't feel like we have to project a perfection.
Kevin Thompson [00:17:37]:
We are known by one another at the same time. We're not excusing bad behavior. It's not that by any means. But it is now this place of vulnerability where I can reveal to you even the broken parts of my life without fear that you're going to treat it poorly, that you're going to judge me, that you're going to exploit me. And instead it is this openness that is actually there. That doesn't have to be the pantry for you. For us, it's the pantry. I don't know what it is for you, but how's the pantry in your marriage right now? Are you willing to take that risk to be vulnerable with your spouse? And what is vulnerability? Julie Manato says it this way.
Kevin Thompson [00:18:17]:
Julian Manado says vulnerability now is the willingness to be rejected. It's to put something out there knowing that your spouse might reject that and reject you. And so there's a nervousness about that. But has there been such a trust that's been built within that relationship and respect that you know they're going to treat you right, that you're now willing to go there with them in a way that you wouldn't go there with other people? Don't forget, one of my definitions of vulnerability is an ability to show to one what you keep concealed to everybody else. So nobody else gets to see the pantry in my house, but we. You have to be part of the family really, to see the pantry for us. Okay, well, there's aspects of my life that nobody else is going to get to see but Joni. But am I showing that to her? And is she now revealing her heart to me? How's the pantry within your marriage? Is there a vulnerability that is actually there? And then there's in our downstairs, there's a dining room.
Kevin Thompson [00:19:16]:
And many times the dining room is used whenever we have people over and things like that. But sometimes it's not just that. Maybe it's the porch as well for us that Jenny and I can just go and then be. And what I love about that picture is, and this is the book that's actually going to come out next August. You're going to hear a ton about it between now and then. So the dining room for me is that there is this true sense of us. There's this entity that now exists beyond just Ella and Silas, the family, the four of us, beyond who I am as an individual. There's something very unique that is Jenny and Mai's relationship, and it exists outside of everything else.
Kevin Thompson [00:20:00]:
It is its own thing. How's the dining room, your relationship? Do you see your marriage now as its own entity? And if so, how's its health? Not the health of me as an individual or Jenny as an individual? How's the health of us? Who are we? Are we making sure that we're creating our own identity apart from just us as. As a. As a family of a husband and wife and two kids, but that the marriage has its own distinct kind of identity. And so you have the kitchen, which is attachment. You have the living room, which is attunement. You have the pantry, which is vulnerability. You have the dining room, which is an entity that is ourself.
Kevin Thompson [00:20:45]:
And then the final room I would put in our downstairs that I think is important is you can either call it the laundry room or the bathroom. Let's go with the laundry room. That's where ours is downstairs. And it's just the reality of life's messy marriage is messy. People are messy. You have to have this place where things are cleaned. So here's the truth. You can have all these other rooms, right? And you can build all the skills that you want on the upstairs and get those all right.
Kevin Thompson [00:21:15]:
But if there's an ugliness within your marriage, the marriage isn't going to be good. Imagine how quickly we would get to work in some way if our laundry room stopped working. And the stench and the smell that would actually come from that. You have to have an ability to clean some things up in a relationship. The term that I think it's Dan Siegel, who invented it years ago, everybody uses it now, is rupture and repair. So rupture. Every relationship is going to feel this sense of disconnection. And then repair is how do we begin to put it back together and what does that actually feel like? And while repair is a skill to be learned, no doubt, and so in part, it is a second story thing.
Kevin Thompson [00:21:58]:
It's so important that it actually exists on the first story for me that we have to have at least a minor ability, a growing need of ability to repair the difficult things, the sense of disconnection. I said the thing wrong. I wasn't as Thoughtful as I should have been, I overlooked something that I thought was minor. It was actually that major. I turned something into something major that was actually minor in some ways. And all that has to begin to take place. So that's the first story. The first story is attachment and attunement, vulnerability, a sense of its own identity or entity, a sense of us.
Kevin Thompson [00:22:38]:
And then that ability to repair those five rooms have to exist. And if one of them does not exist, here's the difficulty. When one of those doesn't exist or a multitude of those doesn't exist, what we do is we begin to experience negative consequences within our relationship. And now we're trying to figure out what are we going to do about it. So whenever one of those doesn't exist, we experience the negative consequences of that. And yet if we pick up a marriage book, if we go to retreat, even if you kind of watch me online sometimes, what a guy like me tends to tell you you need to do is learn a skill. Oh, well, okay, you're not attuned to each other. Go on a date night, that'll solve everything.
Kevin Thompson [00:23:24]:
But it doesn't. Instead there's this tremendous sense of pressure that is there. There's not a secure attachment, but the way that expresses itself is now you're fighting over money, or you're fighting over sex, or you're fighting over, over parenting. And so you pick up a book and they're like, oh, well, you need to learn how to budget. You need to prioritize intimacy in a better way. You need to learn these I statements in communication. And you do all those things and it doesn't change the marriage. Why? It's because you're trying to renovate the second story when it's actually the first story that is struggling.
Kevin Thompson [00:24:02]:
And if you and I can get this image in our heads again, skills are so important. It's where I spend a majority of my time in premarital counseling, teaching skills. And I think for a good number of people, they would actually benefit to go back through a premarital class if they didn't have it or even if they did that to learn these skills. I think skills are extremely important. How do we grow? How do we communicate? How do we handle money? Those are so important. But if we never focus on the first story, it just simply isn't going to matter. And so I want you to build a two story marriage. I want you to have in your mind a concept.
Kevin Thompson [00:24:38]:
And now the next time you have a disagreement, the next time you think about how your marriage Just isn't where it quite needs to be. Before you race to the second story, investigate the first story. Literally sit in the main floor of your house. If you have a two story house, if you have a one story house, then look around and just go room by room and apply that to your marriage. And to look in the kitchen, what for us is the centerpiece? And say, all right, how is the centerpiece of our marriage? Is it healthy or not? And how can we make that healthier? If you need more, work on that. Go back and listen to the five episodes of Love Styles. Go to Amazon and buy the book. That will get to the core of your relationship.
Kevin Thompson [00:25:16]:
But after you go there, go to the living room and say, okay, are we taking time to really attune with each other? And what would it look like for us to truly connect? Go the dining room and remind yourself, hey, we are this own entity. Let's make sure that we don't become so enmeshed with our kids or our work, or so individualized and isolated that we lose this sense of us. If you need to work on that, go ahead and pre order on Amazon. The Creation of Us. It comes out August 4th. And then look at your pantry and begin to ask, have we created a relationship where we really can't be vulnerable with each other anymore? Or am I actually holding back when I can be vulnerable with you, but I'm actually so hurt I'm holding back? And what would it look like to then open up and then walk into the laundry room and just ask some very basic questions? What's the dirty clothes in this relationship that you know what, we went out and we did it wrong. We got all muddy and we haven't cleaned it. And so this thing is just the stench of this is just existing.
Kevin Thompson [00:26:25]:
It does us no good whatsoever to be upstairs working on intimacy if there's all this stench of distrust from some episode that happened several years ago or some slow drip of distrust that's created sense of a lack of respect. It makes no sense for us to try to budget better if the real issue is down on the first floor, there's a lack of respect. When I see a lot of people who are working on their marriage, which I applaud. Those who do, they're spending all this time trying to renovate the second floor, not recognizing it's the first floor of their marriage that really is struggling. And yet once you build that first floor, once you grow in your attachment, you begin to attune better. You have the own sense of entity that actually exists. You're being vulnerable with each other. You learn to repair things.
Kevin Thompson [00:27:18]:
You're cleaning things. Oh, my goodness. Then you can run upstairs and built on that connection that is there on the first floor, you can learn all these skills and notice what happens then. Those skills tend to become much faster to you and then they benefit your relationship so much better. Here's a very simple test for whether or not your first floor is struggling right now. Learn a new marital skill. And if that doesn't raise your sense of marital satisfaction, then the problem is down on the first floor. But if it greatly increases it, it shows that you have a healthy first floor.
Kevin Thompson [00:27:56]:
Now you can build the second floor. The best marriages I know are these two story marriages. Build the first floor, work on the second floor. And that goes a long way to changing the odds. We'll see you next time.