Kevin Thompson [00:00:00]:
Hey, welcome back to Change the Odds where marriage and family were never meant to be. A game of chance. This is episode five, a little mini series that we're doing on Love Styles, a basic overview of what attachment theory is all about. So if you're just now jumping in, make sure you go back. Episode one is just an overview. What is attachment theory? What does it even mean? What does it look like? In episode two, we really focus in on secure attachment. What does it mean to be securely attached? In the third episode, we then look at the three, three non secure approaches. They're all kind of the same thing, but they express themselves in radically different ways.
Kevin Thompson [00:00:36]:
So you have anxious, avoidant and disorganized in episode four. What we looked at last time is if we have some of those non secure approaches in our lives, the good news is we're not stuck there. So how do we grow? How do we learn or earn a secure attachment? And so in today's episode, we want to kind of raise, wrap up something from the previous episodes. One little idea and then we're going to conclude by looking at just what's the biblical background to all of this? Okay, so this is a bunch of psychology. I'm not a psychologist. I've taken classes, no doubt, and have minors in that in college. But I'm a pastor first and foremost. So what is a pastor doing talking about attachment theory? Well, I think there's a great biblical overview that we can take to understand how attachment theory in many ways explains kind of what happened between Genesis 2 and Genesis 3.
Kevin Thompson [00:01:28]:
But before we get there, I want to answer one objection that I often hear whenever I'm doing conferences, whenever I'm lecturing on this, I always love to do Q and A from the audience. And one question that is often asked is this basic objection that comes in two different forms. And what's ironic to me is those objections actually reveal if somebody's coming from an anxious approach or avoidant approach. So somebody with an anxious pathway tends to have this objection. Hey, aren't we just blaming the past? Aren't we blaming our parents? And they feel bad in some ways because let's face it, the basic viewpoint of attachment theory is how you view yourself, others and God was primarily shaped by how your needs were met in the first few years of life by your primary caregivers. And then we go on to say that, that none of us have a perfect attachment, which means our parents made mistakes and they did. But here's the thing to recognize. Attachment theory isn't about blame.
Kevin Thompson [00:02:30]:
It's not about excuses, it's about explanation. Who am I and how did I become me? And the biblical approach is that all of us are sin filled people being raised by sin filled people. So none of us think that we were raised perfectly. None of us as parents think that we're doing a perfect job with our kids. And even beyond that, attachment isn't about intention. Love is about more than just intention. Love is also about opportunity. It's about skills, ability, availability.
Kevin Thompson [00:03:03]:
I think about this all the time, even within my own family, as a guy who's written a book on attachment theories, done so much work on myself. Now, Jenny and I's relationship, we think that we have a great relationship. We've raised these two kids. And yet I know beyond a shadow of a doubt, we have raised our two children in imperfect ways. And some of that is our own sinfulness, no doubt our own selfishness. I think sometimes we're way too quick to assume the goodness of parents, the goodness of who we are. We all know that we're failures in so many ways. Pride filled, selfish, all those kind of things, then that has consequences on our children.
Kevin Thompson [00:03:38]:
So even this idea of can it be said of me that regarding parenting that I did the best I could? Yes and no. Yes on one hand. I mean, you've heard the podcast before with me and my son Silas. We shot last year in which I told him, man, there's few things, maybe nothing I think more about than how to be a better dad. There's just very few things I think about. So I'm trying to do my best and no doubt I'm going after that. But at other times, man, I'm full of pride and selfishness and I really haven't done my best. And I have to admit that and recognize there's consequences upon their lives because of that.
Kevin Thompson [00:04:17]:
But at the same time, there's also consequences upon their lives. In spite of my best intentions, I wonder what must it be like for, let's say, my son who he's born and whenever he's born, just within the first few years of his life, he's born, first of all, he has an older sister with special needs. That takes just more time and understanding at that time in her life. And so is it possible there were times in which he had needs that me and Jenny overlooked in spite of our best of intentions? Clearly there are. But then even beyond that, during those seasons of life, I was pastoring, I was writing, Jenny was starting a business. During that time, her dad died next door to us. My Grandparents lived, both of them died. Very important people in Silas life and all of our lives.
Kevin Thompson [00:05:02]:
And is it possible in the midst of grief, of busyness, of business, that there were times our children had needs and we overlooked them? Clearly there are. And so this is not about making excuses. This is about some explanations of why we are who we are. And so for me, one of the great tests of whether or not you're truly doing the work whenever it comes to attachment theory is eventually growing in this area, should give you more compassion toward your family of origin. I know this for me, and I feel like I've had this for a long time. But in writing this book, I have more empathy and compassion for my parents now, having written the book, than I did before I wrote the book, even as I'm exploring in my own life, kind of, how did their relationship, how did their divorce impact and shape who I am in Impact my marriage, impact my parenting? Even as I'm digging all that out, the end result is more empathy, more compassion. Two episodes ago, I told the story about just one day in second grade in which I felt that my needs were a bother in some way, that my needs were unknown or unseen. I was unknown or unseen.
Kevin Thompson [00:06:16]:
But even in reviewing that day when, man, I look back at my parents and I think, oh, my goodness, man, they were loving and kind and they were trying to do what they could in the moment. And, I mean, they were probably doing a better job than what I would do with my kids now. So even a day that didn't go well, I now have empathy and compassion upon them. And yet, whenever somebody asks in a meeting, hey, isn't this just blaming our parents? I think, oh, little anxiously attached there. They're a little bit too concerned with what are our parents going to think about us doing this exploration instead of just telling the truth and say, hey, here's what happened. Now what can we do about it? There's a second objection that's a more avoidant approach. And the second objection is this. That's all the past.
Kevin Thompson [00:07:00]:
It doesn't matter now. Notice what's happening is somebody who's wanting to avoid the vulnerability of looking at themselves, of looking at their past, of seeing what may be going on in their heart, of how some past hurts, might have actually happened, might be impacting them today to some extent, might be impacting their future. And so it's actually an avoidant technique to try to protect ourselves from harm. But one thing we talk about in the book is we use Dan Siegel's illustration about this idea of understanding memories can better help us understand the truth of attachment theory. So Siegel tells the story that he's a counselor, and so he's working with a child who was brutally abused as a very small child. And he helped. You know, the father was convicted, went to prison. The father was on drugs when all this happened.
Kevin Thompson [00:07:51]:
So the father went to prison, thankfully, got clean and sober while in prison, but it's going to serve a very long prison sentence. But Siegel was working with the child. The child began to grow, was doing great, was flourishing in ways that people were really surprised at how well he did all throughout elementary school, was doing great, when all of a sudden in middle school, just all of a sudden a new year began, and the child began to act out in very aggressive kind of ways, enough that they called Siegel, the counselor, back in, and he's trying to figure out what's going on. Many people thought maybe it was hormones, season of life. Maybe as he was opening his eyes to his own kind of sexual urges and desires, this brought back much of the abuse, all that would make total sense. But Siegel was kind of processing through. Through all these things, and one of the things that he did as a research kind of psychiatrist is to have everybody in this little boy's life fill out these questionnaires to try to see is there any kind of outside force or source of what's going on. And that's when Siegel found it.
Kevin Thompson [00:08:50]:
When Siegel went back and interviewed the father who was in prison, who's now clean and sober and wondered what was best for the child, he recognized something on his questionnaire that that matched one of the teachers for the child. And what it was is this male teacher wore old spice aftershave, the same aftershave that the father wore when the abuse was taking place. What was happening is when that young man walked into that middle school classroom and he smelled a smell. He was smelling the smell of the abuse of whenever he was such a small child, just walking one or two or three years old. Well, what's interesting about that is, you know, you and I really don't have the ability to form explicit memories of our first few years of life. And so here's what's so helpful, I think, about Dan Siegel. He explains that memories come in two forms. There are explicit memories and implicit memories.
Kevin Thompson [00:09:54]:
An explicit memory means, I know I'm remembering. And so if I were to ask you, hey, what'd you have for lunch yesterday? When you would tell me what you had for lunch, you would know in that moment, you weren't Having it right now, you would know that you were remembering. That's an explicit memory. And Siegel says that our brain has the capacity to store explicit memories. Around year three or four, somewhere in there, you can begin to have actual your first memories of, or maybe around that time. But that doesn't mean that what happens in your first three years of life is just totally forgotten and doesn't have any impact on you. Your body still stores that, but it stores it in a different way. It stores it as an implicit memory.
Kevin Thompson [00:10:38]:
And here's the difference. In an explicit memory, whenever you remember something from the past, it feels like the past. But an implicit memory expresses itself as the present. You're being triggered in the present, not knowing it's actually a past memory, but because you don't know it's an implicit memory, because it's stored in a different part of your brain, you don't know it's a past experience. It feels like the present. So when that little boy walked in that classroom, smelled that smell that felt like the present, but it was actually his body remembering the past. Now, what's interesting is Siegel says that while we have the ability to store explicit memories late in our third year of life, early in our fourth year of life, we have the ability to store implicit memories at seven months of gestation. Now, what's funny is we already know this because we already know that you're supposed to sing to the child in the womb and to talk to the child in the womb, that they're already being formed late in gestation.
Kevin Thompson [00:11:43]:
We already know that that that is important, and it's impacting what their future is going to be. So we already know this, but we've never kind of put together that reality of, oh, my. Those first couple years of life. Our body is storing these memories. We're learning what love feels like and looks like, but we don't know that we're storing those memories, which means we're experiencing them as the present, which is why I often say that many times for couples, the fight that you feel like you're having in the present is actually a fight you're having with some part of your past. Something from your past has been triggered in the present moment, and you don't recognize the impact of the past in the present. And so somebody with a more avoidant pathway, whenever they say, hey, it's the past, it doesn't matter, I'm like, oh, yes, it does. And you know that it does.
Kevin Thompson [00:12:30]:
So let's have the ability to be vulnerable about what's going on and to look in at how it might impact us. So those are a couple objections that we get to attachment theory. Now let's look. There's a third objection. I often get that as a pastor, I'm spending far too much time on psychology and not enough time on scripture. So what's the relationship between attachment theory and the Bible? And what I love about it is whenever I was in undergrad and then also in seminary, I would take classes on theology, obviously, but then there are also classes on psychology, on counseling, on development. My minor in college, it was on family psychology. And it was interesting to me as we were learning how there was such an overlap many times between those two fields.
Kevin Thompson [00:13:19]:
Specifically, I thought there was an overlap between this idea of Genesis 3, that in God's original design, in Genesis 1 and 2, we were to be perfect people now born into perfect families. And what would it look like for perfect parents to raise perfect children? It sounds like a great relationship. But when sin entered the world, it impacted every aspect of us. Even our genes are now fallen. And now we are imperfect people being raised by imperfect people. And what's the consequences of that? And I think what now attachment theory does in a beautiful way is it begins to explain practically some of the impact that sin has actually had within our lives. And so let's just kind of take a journey very quickly, maybe about 10 minute journey here through a biblical overview of attachment theory. What's the biblical story and how does attachment actually fit into it? So remember this, we were made for secure love.
Kevin Thompson [00:14:20]:
God's original desire for Adam and Eve was to walk with God in perfect intimacy and trust. No fear, no shame, no hiding. Genesis 2:25 captures it perfectly. The man and his wife were both naked and they felt no shame. That is the very essence of secure attachment. Complete vulnerability with no fear of rejection. Both individuals are seen and known and valued and loved. Both have a total sense of self worth, being completely bonded with one another and God.
Kevin Thompson [00:14:54]:
But Genesis 3 changes everything. When sin enters the world, it brings with it fear. And when Adam and Eve eat from the tree, their first response is not repentance, it's panic. They don't run to God, they hide from him. They don't protect each other. They shame and blame one another. Genesis 3:10 says, I was afraid, so I hid. Life after the fall is defined by fear and shame, blame and hiding.
Kevin Thompson [00:15:26]:
All are enemies to secure attachment. And all lead us to the adaptations of non secure attachment. Now imagine if the fall had never happened. There'd be no fear of rejection, no neglect, no criticism, no emotional shutdowns. Children would be thoroughly delighted in and always delightful. They would be emotionally mirrored, giving them a sense of connection and self. Marriages would be full of grace and connection. Communities and neighborhoods would be safe and healthy.
Kevin Thompson [00:15:58]:
Secure attachment would be universal. But that is not our world. Instead, every parent since Eden has passed on to some degree their broken patterns of relating, not because they're evil, but because they're human. As David confessed in Psalm 51:5 surely I was sinful at birth, sinful from the time my mother conceived me. We are born not just into a world of sin, but into relationships that have been shaped by sin. Parents are impacted by fear, insecurity, and unhealed wounds. As a result, we grow up with the attachment patterns that reflect far more Genesis 3 than Genesis 2 and so anxious. Attachment echoes Eve's longing for connection and fear of abandonment.
Kevin Thompson [00:16:51]:
Avoidant attachment echoes Adam's withdrawal and self justification. Disorganized attachment echoes both a pushing and a pulling in the midst of panic. Non secure attachment patterns are strategies developed in a fallen world to protect ourselves from being hurt again. Yet they often simply add to the hurt actions and responses that helped in the past, hurt in the present. But thankfully, the gospel offers a different way. We can identify and understand and replace our non secure attachment styles with healthier ones. We are not stuck in old habits. We can learn new ways to connect and love.
Kevin Thompson [00:17:36]:
That's one of the gifts of the gospel. What does God do in Genesis 3? He pursues. Genesis 3:9 says, but the Lord God called to man, where are you? He doesn't abandon Adam and Eve. He seeks them out. He covers their shame and he sets in motion a plan for restoration. In attachment terms, God models secure love. He pursues even when they hide. He names the rupture but doesn't withdraw.
Kevin Thompson [00:18:07]:
He provides even when consequences are declared. He remains emotionally and relationally available. Throughout Scripture we see this pattern again and again. God remains a secure base and a safe haven for his people. In Jesus we see what it looks like to live with a completely secure attachment to the Father. He is non defensive when accused, emotionally honest in grief, assertive without aggressive, dependent without shame, capable of both intimacy and solitude, fully individual yet completely connected. And Jesus offers to extend that same secure connection to us. He said, remain in me as I also remain in you.
Kevin Thompson [00:18:57]:
This is the gospel invitation not just to be saved from the consequences of sin, but to be restored to a secure relationship with God, with others, and even ourselves. In a fallen world, we rarely receive perfect love from our parents. But we can experience healing love in the midst of community. The local church, when healthy becomes the context for earned secure attachment. Safe people who show up consistently, spiritual leaders who mirror God's compassion. Vulnerable friendships marked by grace, honest conflict followed by forgiveness and repair. When Christians live out the fruit of the spirit, love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, gentleness and self control, they aren't just being moral, they are living with secure attachment. And that's the hope for us.
Kevin Thompson [00:19:57]:
To me, attachment theory just explains from a psychological concept what happened between Genesis 2 and Genesis 3, but it doesn't leave us there. It also begins to point to Revelation 21 and this idea that a day is going to come in which all things are going to be made new. And the good news of the Gospel is that for those of us who follow Jesus, we don't have to wait till then. We can begin to be transformed right now and so earn security. Learn security is another way to talk about sanctification. Transformation, beginning to grow and mature in our faith. And it will never be a perfect process by any means. And until we see Jesus face to face, all of us will continue to deal with our old selves and our new selves and all of what goes into that.
Kevin Thompson [00:20:53]:
But you and I are not stuck. We said in the very first session of this Little Love Styles miniseries that attachment theory kind of begins to explain that many of us are trying to regulate our relationships with the wrong thermostat. And some of us, from a more anxious approach, are tempted to try to heat things up constantly because we can't bear the thought of any sense of isolation. Now others of us, from a more avoidant approach, are trying to always kind of cool things down, to keep people at an arm's distance because we just think that we can't. We're going to be overwhelmed by the expectations of other people. Some in the midst of a disorganized attachment, are longing for connection and yet terrified of the very people they want to connect with. All these forms of non secure attachment are realities within our own lives. And yet the good news of the Gospel is we can get a new thermostat that properly reads the temperature of the room and begins to regulate in the right way that we can all learn how to warm it up when we feel a little bit of distance, how to experience some alone time without any fear or panic, to create and keep our own individuality, to recognize what safety even looks like, and to begin to distinguish between true danger and the people we need to protect ourselves from and actually loving, kind, compassionate, imperfect people that we can be in a healthy relationship with.
Kevin Thompson [00:22:26]:
Jesus is inviting us into a far better way with ourselves, with others, and with God. Whether or not we take him up on that invitation is up to each of us. Let me encourage you to do so. Now, where do we go from here? Hopefully you've listened to all five episodes. Now you have a good overview of what attachment theory actually looks like. Here's a couple of steps you can take if you haven't already. Get the book Love Styles. It'll go more in depth into what we've talked about here.
Kevin Thompson [00:22:55]:
More stories, more explanation of what's going on. The charts within the book can be extremely helpful to begin to show and to remind yourself. Just a quick read, leave it on the shelf. After you've read it, you can pull out the charts, kind of dog ear them down and just remind yourself what does a secure approach look like? Because the answer to nearly every question that you might ask right now is learn how to respond in a secure manner and operate in that way. Oh, my husband is anxious, my wife is avoidant, my child is disorganized. Will respond in a secure way. That's the answer. So read the book and then I would find at least one friend or a few friends, maybe a small group and study it together.
Kevin Thompson [00:23:34]:
You can email me, you can go to changetheodds.com and I can send you a list of questions. And there's just a power to do this in the midst of the community because don't forget as we said earlier, you can read about secure attachment in the midst of isolation, but you can't grow in it outside of community. Now another thing you can do is go to Lovestyles AI Lovestyles AI and begin to have a conversation with the AI there to begin to explore. Hey, help me understand some of my non secure ways. What are some ways I can grow and secure attachment? Here's what's happening in my relationship. Help me understand what am I not seeing in this moment that will help you grow in your own awareness in a very safe kind of way. Look, 60% of all users are using AI now to get relationship answers and questions. But here's the problem.
Kevin Thompson [00:24:22]:
ChatGPT is trained to tell you what you want to hear. Lovestyles AI is trained to tell you what you need to hear. It'll be tough with you at times in a compassionate way, but just say hey, don't do that. Hey, you don't need to do this. You here's a better way to respond. Go there and begin to explore this. Here's the challenge for you. Just take a step of something.
Kevin Thompson [00:24:42]:
It's one thing to listen to a podcast as a couple and go, man, I wish we had some of those characteristics in our relationship. But take a step. Read the book together, get in a small group, go to the AI, do something and you won't regret it. Until next time. Don't forget, marriage and family were never meant to be a game. A chance you truly can change your odds from for success and love styles can help us do that. We'll see you next time.